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thought experiments in physics are

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pivotal for the generation of novel

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ideas

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the dissolution of old ones or simply

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for an original take on specific

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phenomenons that already exist

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given that fundamental physics has been

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stalled in the past few decades

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primarily due to a lack of data as well

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as other factors

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and i'm trying to put forth my own

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theory of everything and integrate it

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with consciousness

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i thought how far can i go with thought

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experiments

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james robert brown is a professor of

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philosophy

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mathematics and physics

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at the university of toronto and he was

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generous enough to give me

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a few hours of his time he's written

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several books which i recommend you

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check out

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and we spoke yesterday which is what

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you'll see first as well as at the end

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i'm going to append a sliver of a

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conversation that me and him had about

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two years ago

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but i never posted this is perhaps the

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deepest dive you'll see on youtube on

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thought experiments as well as platonism

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there's even a test to see whether or

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not you're a platonist or non-platonist

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or newtonian or leibnizian

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and they're in the timestamps again in

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these podcasts i tend to not shy away

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from technical details

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for one because i think when you

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sacrifice details it's akin to

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sacrificing the truth

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or at worst giving a false impression as

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well as i think that the audience that

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is you

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are extremely smart and you can keep up

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enjoy

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it's as if this is my first time alright

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hello professor brown how's it going

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it's going well

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uh and please call me jim okay jim

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so jim what are you working on these

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days i'm working on

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the connection between mathematics and

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ethics

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there's uh some features of both that

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are already well known

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for instance our mathematical knowledge

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and our ethical knowledge

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don't come from sensory experience

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like yeah do you mind expounding uh well

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by sensory experience i just mean

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sight hearing smell taste um

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you don't know that uh there are

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infinitely many prime numbers because

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you've gone out and seen them right

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you don't know that root two is an

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irrational number because you held up a

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ruler

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on a diagonal square and got an

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irrational number

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um our mathematical knowledge is

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definitely not

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empirical though it might be connected

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to the empirical world in

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some indirect ways but it's certainly

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not like the

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natural sciences at all well what does

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that have to do with ethics

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well ethics is exactly the same so

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you could see one person kill another

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person

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that could be an empirical experience

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but to judge it as an immoral act is not

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empirical

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somebody pulls out a gun and shoots

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somebody else and a red light doesn't

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flash in the corner of your eye saying

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this was wicked this was wicked

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okay and how we uh

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acquire ethical knowledge and how we

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acquire mathematical knowledge are

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surprisingly similar in a number of ways

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you mentioned before in one of your

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talks on youtube about the distinction

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between thick and thin concepts

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do you mind delineating that for the

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audience oh

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not at all and this is a really

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interesting idea it's

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fairly new inside ethics

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so the idea of thin concepts are

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thin concepts can be anywhere they can

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be in the sciences in everyday life

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and in ethics so if i say the house is

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on fire

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i'm using thin concepts if i say

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words like mass color taste

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those are all sin concepts

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but they're from the factual realm

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okay and then in the uh ethical

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or uh evaluative realm are more thin

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concepts but they're just in a different

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realm so

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good bad beautiful ugly

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um uh obligation those

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duty those are thin concepts from ethics

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okay so the world it seems like is made

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up of thin concepts some are in the

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factual realm

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some are in the normative evaluative

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ethical realm

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now then um a few years ago people began

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to

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focus on a number of words that we use

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in daily life and they seem to be really

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important in

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in how we treat things and how we reason

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and these these words are called thick

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and that's because they're

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simultaneously um

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fact type terms and

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the evaluative terms okay so if i say

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that's actually i'm saying two things

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i'm talking about your

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health in a factual sense like your

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blood pressure is 120 over 80.

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all right for instance but i'm saying

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more than that when i say you're healthy

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i'm saying and it's a good state that

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you're in

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so there's an evaluative component as

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well as a factual component

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when i say you're healthy another

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example beside

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okay yeah i'll give you lots more um

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brave courageous

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okay courageous uh if i say mary

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was courageous that's it that

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includes a kind of factual

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component especially if we've just seen

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mary

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run into a burning house and and save

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the family's pet dog

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okay so she's pulled it out so there's a

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straightforward factual

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component to that about mary's action

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okay

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but there's also an evaluative component

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like what she did was a good thing

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it's good to be brave well done mary

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we're really proud of you

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so brave is different it's thick

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brave is thick now some people say

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you don't need thick concepts they're

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very convenient

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so you don't need them because i could

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say this mary ran into the house

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she brought out the family dog

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and here comes the evaluative

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and what she did was good

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or i can just sort of summarize it mary

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was very brave

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and the word brave courageous those sort

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of terms

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those are thick concepts and we use them

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a lot

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something

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is uh um and once you get that once you

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get the feeling

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um it's uh you can find them all over

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the place why is

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the word good not a thick concept uh

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because it's it's

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it's just thin it just it's just pure

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evaluation it doesn't tell you anything

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right right right okay uh it doesn't

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tell you anything factual that's why

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it's thin

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evaluative and if i say mary entered the

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burning house

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that doesn't tell you anything uh

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evaluative it just

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gives you a factual description of

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something that happened

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okay but once you get the hang of it you

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see all sorts of terms are thick

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loyal liar

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dastardly uh untrustworthy

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see those if i say kirk you're very

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untrustworthy

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i'm suggesting that you've cheated me on

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something or you've lied to other people

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or something like that

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and it's a bad thing okay so you see how

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it's a thick

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term right does it always go to good or

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bad on that one

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line spectrum no if you were if we were

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in if we were in the artistic

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realm uh it might be rather than good or

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bad it might be beautiful ugly

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something like that okay but you can see

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the evaluative term

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uh in the one in what from the one realm

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and the

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straightforward factual so if i describe

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a picture like

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well there's a little bit of red here

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and there's some blue there

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okay that's that's the sort of you just

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read the rgb values

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that's a thin yeah that's a thin

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description of the painting

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from a factual point of view and then if

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i want to say it's spectacularly

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beautiful

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or it's charming sorry charming sorry

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charming would be um

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would be a thick concept it's beautiful

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just plain beautiful

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okay that would be a thin concept and if

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i say it's charming it's evocative

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uh and and suggesting a combination of

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things that are both

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factual and uh evaluated simultaneously

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those are the thick ones okay so why am

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i interested in that

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because that's that's what i just told

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you sort of right and how does that

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relate to mathematics

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exactly okay that's the important

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question so i've been thinking about

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um by the way thick concepts in ethics

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that's commonplace okay and everyone in

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ethics

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knows about thick thin and then the

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standard views about them

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okay when when i was thinking about

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ethics and math i'm looking for all

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kinds of connections between ethics and

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math

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not just the one about neither of them

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are empirical

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okay our knowledge isn't empirical in

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either case

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what are the other connections well one

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of them

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might be a kind that might be an inside

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math and physics

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a kind of thick concept so i don't want

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to talk about facts and values now

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i'm just using this as an analogy so

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there can be math

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and there can be physics pure math

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okay you understand pure math is just

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you know nothing but set theory

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and pure physics has got nothing

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mathematical about it

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and the way uh math gets applied is math

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provides models

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for the physical realm this my what i

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just said

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is slightly contentious it's probably a

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majority opinion

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but there are lots of people who would

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dispute it let's just stick with the

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majority opinion for now

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um math provides models of the world and

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what a physicist will do

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is look at the the range of models

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in plato's heaven and say i think this

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one

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is is structurally very similar to the

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physical realm

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okay right and we apply math in that

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sort of way

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now uh that would be thin

287
00:10:29,829 --> 00:10:28,560
pure math is just thin those are nothing

288
00:10:32,470 --> 00:10:29,839
but thin concepts

289
00:10:33,670 --> 00:10:32,480
pure physics without any math in it

290
00:10:37,269 --> 00:10:33,680
nothing but pure

291
00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:37,279
physical concepts could there be a thick

292
00:10:44,310 --> 00:10:40,640
concept that's that that's that somehow

293
00:10:44,949 --> 00:10:44,320
or other involves both not just modeling

294
00:10:47,110 --> 00:10:44,959
modeling

295
00:10:48,310 --> 00:10:47,120
is by itself isn't going to do it a

296
00:10:51,670 --> 00:10:48,320
thick concept would be

297
00:10:53,990 --> 00:10:51,680
a kind of really intimate uh

298
00:10:55,509 --> 00:10:54,000
intertwining of the two and i was sort

299
00:10:57,030 --> 00:10:55,519
of vaguely thinking about this and i

300
00:11:00,310 --> 00:10:57,040
came across um

301
00:11:01,110 --> 00:11:00,320
a wonderful quote in a famous calculus

302
00:11:06,230 --> 00:11:01,120
book

303
00:11:08,710 --> 00:11:06,240
spivak

304
00:11:09,910 --> 00:11:08,720
it's just called calculus uh did you

305
00:11:11,990 --> 00:11:09,920
take physics in

306
00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:12,000
math yeah do you know that you know the

307
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:13,120
book i'm talking about yeah it's a

308
00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:14,800
famous book it's first year

309
00:11:20,470 --> 00:11:18,320
one five seven one five seven ah okay

310
00:11:21,990 --> 00:11:20,480
but it's a wonderful it's a wonderful

311
00:11:23,670 --> 00:11:22,000
and his second book is also great it's

312
00:11:25,350 --> 00:11:23,680
like a direct book where it's

313
00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:25,360
tiny yeah book is large and then the

314
00:11:28,389 --> 00:11:26,720
second book on manifold

315
00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:28,399
yeah yeah yeah you're right you're

316
00:11:31,430 --> 00:11:30,240
absolutely like two pages long

317
00:11:34,230 --> 00:11:31,440
it takes you a whole semester to get

318
00:11:35,910 --> 00:11:34,240
through that well one page of exposition

319
00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:35,920
followed by ten pages of uh

320
00:11:43,030 --> 00:11:39,680
uh gut wrenching problems that

321
00:11:44,790 --> 00:11:43,040
are so hard to solve okay so anyway uh

322
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:44,800
there was this wonderful passage

323
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:47,600
in the calculus book so he's just doing

324
00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:48,480
elementary stuff

325
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:50,880
he's teaching derivatives first

326
00:11:55,030 --> 00:11:51,600
derivative

327
00:11:57,990 --> 00:11:55,040
this stuff is really important

328
00:11:58,710 --> 00:11:58,000
especially the second derivative y well

329
00:12:01,829 --> 00:11:58,720
think about

330
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:01,839
newton's newton's law f equals m

331
00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:06,880
a acceleration is the second derivative

332
00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:10,720
okay we got that then he says

333
00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:12,480
next time you're in a car and you go

334
00:12:17,509 --> 00:12:13,920
around a corner

335
00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:17,519
you can feel the second derivative

336
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:20,560
you think about that no no

337
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:24,399
i feel the acceleration right

338
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:26,079
and it's modeled i don't feel the second

339
00:12:29,829 --> 00:12:27,680
you're gonna come on i don't feel a

340
00:12:32,150 --> 00:12:29,839
second derivative don't be ridiculous

341
00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:32,160
nobody can feel a second derivative it

342
00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:34,000
exists in plato's heaven

343
00:12:38,150 --> 00:12:37,360
you can't you can't smell an infinite

344
00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:38,160
series

345
00:12:41,590 --> 00:12:41,040
you can't taste the tangent plane and

346
00:12:43,829 --> 00:12:41,600
you can't

347
00:12:46,150 --> 00:12:43,839
yield the second derivative right that's

348
00:12:47,910 --> 00:12:46,160
what that's what you should say

349
00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:47,920
and i and i but the more i thought about

350
00:12:51,030 --> 00:12:50,079
it i thought i wonder i wonder i wonder

351
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:51,040
if

352
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:57,350
well with math in general physicists and

353
00:13:02,790 --> 00:12:59,040
engineers in particular

354
00:13:06,069 --> 00:13:02,800
who maybe have to do problems of motion

355
00:13:06,949 --> 00:13:06,079
where acceleration is important and they

356
00:13:10,550 --> 00:13:06,959
get so

357
00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:10,560
used to treating physical acceleration

358
00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:11,120
think of

359
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:13,120
the acceleration as an actual physical

360
00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:14,560
process

361
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:16,240
and attaching it to the second

362
00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:18,720
derivative to calculate

363
00:13:24,629 --> 00:13:22,079
it's become so internalized with them

364
00:13:27,110 --> 00:13:24,639
that acceleration and second derivative

365
00:13:29,829 --> 00:13:27,120
becomes a single concept

366
00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:29,839
it's just a fused concept this would

367
00:13:35,910 --> 00:13:32,160
this would be an example

368
00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:35,920
of a thick concept and i got talking to

369
00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:40,000
some physicist friends uh about this

370
00:13:43,590 --> 00:13:42,880
and they're now they don't exactly

371
00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:43,600
understand

372
00:13:47,110 --> 00:13:46,079
and appreciate what i'm trying to get at

373
00:13:50,389 --> 00:13:47,120
but there's enough of

374
00:13:52,870 --> 00:13:50,399
an understanding that they could sort of

375
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:52,880
they could sort of agree that that some

376
00:13:56,069 --> 00:13:54,480
parts of math not all

377
00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:56,079
but some parts of math that they use

378
00:14:01,189 --> 00:13:58,320
they've so internalized

379
00:14:02,389 --> 00:14:01,199
that to utter the math or to other under

380
00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:02,399
the

381
00:14:08,470 --> 00:14:05,440
math less physical description

382
00:14:11,910 --> 00:14:08,480
um they're just they're just uh so

383
00:14:14,150 --> 00:14:11,920
intertwined it's become one single thing

384
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:14,160
what else besides acceleration is there

385
00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:15,120
for math

386
00:14:18,389 --> 00:14:17,040
well this would be hard this because i i

387
00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:18,399
don't want to say it's all the time

388
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:19,920
because i i wouldn't want to say

389
00:14:25,269 --> 00:14:22,800
that someone in quantum mechanics who

390
00:14:28,069 --> 00:14:25,279
thinks about the state of the system

391
00:14:29,189 --> 00:14:28,079
just flips over to a hilbert space which

392
00:14:31,269 --> 00:14:29,199
is how we represent

393
00:14:33,670 --> 00:14:31,279
states in quantum mechanics and just

394
00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:33,680
think of them interchangeably

395
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:36,399
it's a possible candidate because we do

396
00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:38,320
use the same notation for both we just

397
00:14:43,189 --> 00:14:40,399
use a simple psi function for

398
00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:43,199
the vector in a hilbert space or for the

399
00:14:47,269 --> 00:14:44,079
state meaning

400
00:14:49,269 --> 00:14:47,279
the physical property of a quantum

401
00:14:49,829 --> 00:14:49,279
mechanical system that's a candidate but

402
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:49,839
i'm

403
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:52,959
i'd be reluctant to say that stick maybe

404
00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:56,000
uh an example is a very old example a

405
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:57,199
good example

406
00:15:01,590 --> 00:14:59,440
and that's real numbers and points on a

407
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:01,600
line

408
00:15:09,189 --> 00:15:08,240
the unit interval right and we just

409
00:15:11,910 --> 00:15:09,199
attach all the

410
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:11,920
real numbers between zero and one okay

411
00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:13,600
and we think of a real number and a

412
00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:14,480
point as

413
00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:18,160
the same thing just just back and forth

414
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:19,839
and once you it's it's well it's the

415
00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:21,680
it's the whole basis of analytic

416
00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:23,120
geometry

417
00:15:26,389 --> 00:15:25,120
ever since ever since descartes said it

418
00:15:29,189 --> 00:15:26,399
was uh

419
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:29,199
400 years ago when he just said real

420
00:15:36,949 --> 00:15:30,480
numbers and

421
00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:36,959
points in in the plane and so on

422
00:15:39,990 --> 00:15:38,399
we just that they're just completely

423
00:15:41,269 --> 00:15:40,000
interchangeable right

424
00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:41,279
and you're saying that that's a thick

425
00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:43,120
concept because i think i think maybe

426
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:43,839
word line

427
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:47,680
implies a space not line let's say point

428
00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:50,399
point and number point and number they

429
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:51,360
become

430
00:15:58,150 --> 00:15:54,639
um almost a single concept now we can

431
00:15:59,110 --> 00:15:58,160
separate them okay i can ask you to

432
00:16:00,870 --> 00:15:59,120
separate

433
00:16:02,389 --> 00:16:00,880
in your mind and you can do that but

434
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:02,399
they're so interchangeable

435
00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:06,000
um girdle in a famous

436
00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:08,480
article called what is cantor's

437
00:16:11,990 --> 00:16:10,399
continuum hypothesis

438
00:16:14,629 --> 00:16:12,000
starts out he says the continuum

439
00:16:17,749 --> 00:16:14,639
hypothesis is the question

440
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:17,759
um how many real numbers are there or

441
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:19,680
equivalently how many points are there

442
00:16:24,949 --> 00:16:22,160
on a line it just takes them to be

443
00:16:25,910 --> 00:16:24,959
the same issue and that's that's

444
00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:25,920
surprising

445
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:28,560
for a logician who is you know super

446
00:16:32,870 --> 00:16:29,920
super careful

447
00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:32,880
about um about making distinctions when

448
00:16:36,310 --> 00:16:34,720
he thinks it's appropriate

449
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:36,320
okay so what's the significance of this

450
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:37,600
why are you spending your time thinking

451
00:16:40,550 --> 00:16:38,720
about this

452
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:40,560
the i think it's intrinsically

453
00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:41,920
interesting but

454
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:44,480
uh for me it can it might actually do

455
00:16:49,350 --> 00:16:46,000
some work

456
00:16:50,069 --> 00:16:49,360
um uh you know you know the continuum

457
00:16:53,829 --> 00:16:50,079
hypothesis

458
00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:53,839
this is the the claim that um

459
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:57,600
the first uncountable infinity is um

460
00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:59,839
aleph one and it might be and it then

461
00:17:03,189 --> 00:17:00,959
the claim is

462
00:17:04,309 --> 00:17:03,199
that it is um the real numbers the real

463
00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:04,319
numbers have size

464
00:17:09,750 --> 00:17:07,760
out of one the natural numbers

465
00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:09,760
are it's infinitely many but there's

466
00:17:14,230 --> 00:17:10,880
only aleph

467
00:17:18,150 --> 00:17:14,240
zero of them the real numbers are

468
00:17:20,549 --> 00:17:18,160
a bigger infinity and the conjecture

469
00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:20,559
is that um they're the the next biggest

470
00:17:25,750 --> 00:17:21,679
infinity so they'd be

471
00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:25,760
out of one no one's been able to prove

472
00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:29,520
the continuum hypothesis uh or refute it

473
00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:32,720
and in fact uh there are um

474
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:35,600
there's an independence proof meaning

475
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:37,520
you can't prove it and you can't refute

476
00:17:41,830 --> 00:17:38,720
it on the basis of

477
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:41,840
existing axioms of set theory

478
00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:44,160
right and if you think if you think that

479
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:46,000
the existing axioms of set theory are

480
00:17:49,750 --> 00:17:48,160
adequate for the whole of mathematics

481
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:49,760
what that really means is the continuum

482
00:17:52,310 --> 00:17:51,520
hypothesis is independent of all of

483
00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:52,320
mathematics

484
00:17:55,430 --> 00:17:54,080
right right now you can know everything

485
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:55,440
in math you still don't wouldn't know

486
00:17:59,110 --> 00:17:57,200
the continuum hypothesis

487
00:18:00,870 --> 00:17:59,120
so it's you could you could just

488
00:18:03,669 --> 00:18:00,880
arbitrarily make it a

489
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:03,679
a new axiom that would solve the problem

490
00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:05,600
but it would be very unsatisfying

491
00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:06,320
because

492
00:18:14,710 --> 00:18:10,720
rather than making its negation

493
00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:14,720
the new axiom so we're looking around

494
00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:18,080
for um what you might call independent

495
00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:19,600
evidence

496
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:22,640
for the continuum hypothesis one way or

497
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:24,000
the other

498
00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:28,000
what might work well maybe physical

499
00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:30,400
analogies would work you know you just

500
00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:31,440
sort of think about it you're not going

501
00:18:34,950 --> 00:18:32,640
to prove it you're not going to have

502
00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:34,960
any old-fashioned proof but you might

503
00:18:39,909 --> 00:18:36,960
have some other kind of argument

504
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:39,919
if you are a realist or a mathematical

505
00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:41,440
platonist

506
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:44,559
you're going to say it is true

507
00:18:52,789 --> 00:18:49,360
or it is false i just don't know which

508
00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:52,799
okay now question how much detail do you

509
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:53,840
want

510
00:18:57,190 --> 00:18:55,520
oh that's fine let's go in more i know

511
00:18:58,549 --> 00:18:57,200
girdle was a platoonist and he believed

512
00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:58,559
it's either

513
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:01,280
yeah i think that he proved that it's i

514
00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:02,640
don't recall if it's

515
00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:05,520
both either the negation or the positive

516
00:19:09,669 --> 00:19:07,760
application of the continuity

517
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:09,679
he showed that it's consistent it's

518
00:19:12,870 --> 00:19:11,520
consistent with the rest of set theory

519
00:19:15,029 --> 00:19:12,880
yeah you can add it and you won't get

520
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:15,039
into trouble right and it was later

521
00:19:18,470 --> 00:19:16,080
cohen

522
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:18,480
showed that you can add the negation and

523
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:20,400
you won't get into trouble

524
00:19:23,669 --> 00:19:22,400
and that and the two results together

525
00:19:25,590 --> 00:19:23,679
give you independence

526
00:19:27,669 --> 00:19:25,600
the audience will keep up get into as

527
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:27,679
much detail as you like let's go into a

528
00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:31,039
dis proof of the continuum hypothesis

529
00:19:34,549 --> 00:19:32,799
okay you'll have to be hand wavy because

530
00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:34,559
we don't have papers and pens

531
00:19:38,310 --> 00:19:36,320
that's right powerpoint slides and this

532
00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:38,320
is a this is a result um

533
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:40,960
uh a number of years ago from chris

534
00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:42,240
freiling

535
00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:45,360
uh an american logician and it's in

536
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:48,160
it's it's wonderfully clever and it's a

537
00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:51,440
refutation of the continuum hypothesis

538
00:19:57,990 --> 00:19:54,720
okay so um as you say

539
00:20:01,590 --> 00:19:58,000
it'll be a bit hand wavy

540
00:20:04,070 --> 00:20:01,600
so for for those with a math education

541
00:20:05,110 --> 00:20:04,080
um they will know what uh oh i'm going

542
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:05,120
to start out with

543
00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:08,320
what's called zermelo frankel set theory

544
00:20:16,310 --> 00:20:11,440
including the axiom of choice

545
00:20:19,190 --> 00:20:16,320
okay now with the axiom of choice

546
00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:19,200
we can prove what's known as the well

547
00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:20,000
ordering

548
00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:22,480
theorem which means that you take any

549
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:23,840
set whatsoever

550
00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:27,360
and you can give it a well ordering

551
00:20:31,669 --> 00:20:29,120
and that's to and that means you can

552
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:31,679
line it up with the ordinal numbers

553
00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:34,159
so one two three four five and then

554
00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:35,200
omega

555
00:20:39,669 --> 00:20:38,640
which is now the first uh infinite

556
00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:39,679
ordinal

557
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:45,280
all of the countable ordinary done you

558
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:47,440
get into the uncountable ordinals

559
00:20:50,789 --> 00:20:50,400
this is this is this this will sound

560
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:50,799
like

561
00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:53,840
um mystical nonsense unless you've

562
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:56,240
taken a course in sec theory and learned

563
00:21:02,470 --> 00:20:59,360
about the hierarchy of infinite sets

564
00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:02,480
so anyway the ordering theorem says

565
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:05,360
you can put any set including the real

566
00:21:09,669 --> 00:21:06,240
numbers

567
00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:09,679
between 0 and 1 you can line them up

568
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:11,520
with the this infinite string of

569
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:13,760
ordinals now they won't go in the same

570
00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:14,640
order

571
00:21:21,190 --> 00:21:19,679
they'll be jumping all over the place

572
00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:21,200
you know like one half might be

573
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:22,640
associated it's not an intuitive

574
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:23,840
ordering it's not like we

575
00:21:28,830 --> 00:21:26,720
we have any apprehension of it no uh

576
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:28,840
here i'm just guarantees it

577
00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:32,000
yeah the the well ordering theorem

578
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:32,960
guarantees that

579
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:35,520
that it exists but nobody has any idea

580
00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:36,960
of what a well ordering of the real

581
00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:37,840
numbers would be

582
00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:40,320
no one's found one yet we've got well

583
00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:41,120
orderings

584
00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:44,640
of the rational and they're pretty

585
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:46,240
straightforward

586
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:49,840
but not of the real numbers

587
00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:53,120
um so technically the well ordering

588
00:21:57,590 --> 00:21:54,960
theorem says that the subset

589
00:22:00,230 --> 00:21:57,600
that any subset is well ordered it says

590
00:22:03,590 --> 00:22:00,240
that any subset has a first element

591
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:03,600
right right right uh just to see that

592
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:04,960
the ordinary ordering

593
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:07,360
is not a well ordering if i say take all

594
00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:10,799
the real numbers greater than one half

595
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:12,240
sorry can you repeat that just to say

596
00:22:16,950 --> 00:22:13,840
that what take

597
00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:16,960
the real numbers yep greater than one

598
00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:18,240
half

599
00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:20,480
what's the first element right right

600
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:21,360
right greater than

601
00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:23,120
not including one half doesn't have yeah

602
00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:25,440
that's right uh it doesn't have a first

603
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:26,240
element so

604
00:22:30,789 --> 00:22:28,640
that's just not a well ordering but with

605
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:30,799
some other bizarre ordering i might

606
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:33,760
take them uh any subset and and it would

607
00:22:38,470 --> 00:22:34,960
have to have a well or

608
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:38,480
uh there'd have to be a first element

609
00:22:44,549 --> 00:22:42,159
okay so we've we we imagine

610
00:22:45,190 --> 00:22:44,559
that we've got a well ordering of the

611
00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:45,200
real

612
00:22:49,430 --> 00:22:47,200
numbers but just between zero and one

613
00:22:51,909 --> 00:22:49,440
that'll do

614
00:22:52,789 --> 00:22:51,919
okay now comes a little statistical

615
00:22:55,750 --> 00:22:52,799
argument

616
00:22:56,310 --> 00:22:55,760
you and i are gonna throw darts we're

617
00:22:58,789 --> 00:22:56,320
gonna throw

618
00:22:59,350 --> 00:22:58,799
darts at the real line between zero and

619
00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:59,360
one

620
00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:01,919
it's a thought experiment can't do it in

621
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:02,720
reality

622
00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:04,960
but i thought it's better i throw a dart

623
00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:06,080
and i get a number

624
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:09,039
p somewhere between zero and one you

625
00:23:15,270 --> 00:23:12,320
throw your dart and you get a number q

626
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:15,280
also on the line between zero and one

627
00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:16,960
now i'm going to make the following

628
00:23:23,590 --> 00:23:20,400
argument um

629
00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:23,600
your uh your

630
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:26,960
dart hit the number q which is going to

631
00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:27,280
be

632
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:30,960
later in the well ordering than my dart

633
00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:31,919
p

634
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:34,960
why because there's only

635
00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:38,080
um a countable infinity at most

636
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:41,760
of numbers earlier in the well ordering

637
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:45,200
from p and an uncountable infinity

638
00:23:50,870 --> 00:23:48,960
after and so so that you you might be

639
00:23:51,669 --> 00:23:50,880
earlier than me but the probability is

640
00:23:55,269 --> 00:23:51,679
zero

641
00:23:57,909 --> 00:23:55,279
right right right and you your dart

642
00:23:59,669 --> 00:23:57,919
you you've hit number q and you can say

643
00:24:01,350 --> 00:23:59,679
exactly the same argument

644
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:01,360
you're going to say the chance that i'm

645
00:24:08,549 --> 00:24:04,480
earlier in the well ordering is zero

646
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:08,559
and the chance that it's later is is one

647
00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:15,510
because i've i've said you've got to be

648
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:16,480
later than me right

649
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:18,000
right right right and you've argued

650
00:24:20,470 --> 00:24:19,600
correctly that i've got to be later than

651
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:20,480
you

652
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:23,200
right now i have different points yeah

653
00:24:29,029 --> 00:24:23,600
and

654
00:24:30,950 --> 00:24:29,039
what led to this absurdity the

655
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:30,960
assumption that there are aleph

656
00:24:36,789 --> 00:24:34,720
one real numbers if there were alice ii

657
00:24:39,669 --> 00:24:36,799
it wouldn't be a problem

658
00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:39,679
why why is that because uh we i might

659
00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:40,720
have landed in

660
00:24:44,549 --> 00:24:42,880
an uncountable there might be an

661
00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:44,559
uncountable number of points earlier

662
00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:46,320
than me

663
00:24:49,590 --> 00:24:48,320
and an uncountable earlier than you so

664
00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:49,600
we couldn't argue

665
00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:51,760
we wouldn't be able to do that the trick

666
00:24:55,269 --> 00:24:52,720
is

667
00:24:56,310 --> 00:24:55,279
when you've got a countable infinity of

668
00:24:57,830 --> 00:24:56,320
numbers

669
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:57,840
and here comes the result from what's

670
00:25:03,909 --> 00:25:01,200
known as measure theory

671
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:03,919
the the pro it's it the chance of

672
00:25:07,750 --> 00:25:04,880
landing in there

673
00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:07,760
is zero it's not impossible but it's

674
00:25:11,269 --> 00:25:09,360
zero probability

675
00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:11,279
right and that's interesting for people

676
00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:12,640
to wrap their head around that you can

677
00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:12,960
have

678
00:25:16,070 --> 00:25:15,360
a zero probability but possible that's

679
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:16,080
right

680
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:17,600
it's not very well people said that it's

681
00:25:22,870 --> 00:25:19,520
not the same as impossible

682
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:22,880
okay um if that if

683
00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:25,440
if anyone just to take a slight tangent

684
00:25:31,029 --> 00:25:27,360
anyone who finds that absurd

685
00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:31,039
think of a roulette wheel with uh

686
00:25:35,750 --> 00:25:33,279
every real number between zero and one

687
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:35,760
on it okay you spin the wheel

688
00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:38,400
and it's going to stop somewhere what's

689
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:40,240
the what's the chance it's going to land

690
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:41,279
on say

691
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:44,320
one half well

692
00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:46,640
there's infinitely many places that

693
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:48,720
could stop

694
00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:51,360
so the chance is one out of infinity

695
00:25:56,070 --> 00:25:52,000
which is

696
00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:56,080
going to be zero it can happen

697
00:26:00,230 --> 00:25:58,400
but it's going to be zero probability

698
00:26:02,149 --> 00:26:00,240
okay so you and i now have

699
00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:02,159
uh this little we've each got this

700
00:26:07,269 --> 00:26:03,840
little argument

701
00:26:10,470 --> 00:26:07,279
and um um and we each show

702
00:26:14,149 --> 00:26:10,480
that the the other guy is is

703
00:26:15,510 --> 00:26:14,159
uh impossible and this is absurd

704
00:26:17,350 --> 00:26:15,520
and the assumption the background

705
00:26:21,029 --> 00:26:17,360
assumption that led to this

706
00:26:23,909 --> 00:26:21,039
that the continuum hypothesis is true

707
00:26:25,510 --> 00:26:23,919
is in trouble you've got to throw it out

708
00:26:28,549 --> 00:26:25,520
okay

709
00:26:30,710 --> 00:26:28,559
all right now

710
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:30,720
this is really interesting i mean it's

711
00:26:34,070 --> 00:26:32,720
it could be an argument uh

712
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:34,080
you know that settles a continuum

713
00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:36,159
hypothesis though it's not a proof in

714
00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:38,480
any ordinary mathematical sense

715
00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:41,760
it's really different mathematicians who

716
00:26:45,029 --> 00:26:42,960
look at this are

717
00:26:48,149 --> 00:26:45,039
oh they're very queasy you know they

718
00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:48,159
don't like this kind of reasoning

719
00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:49,760
they don't mind suggestive reasoning

720
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:51,760
that's outside of mathematics

721
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:53,039
they don't want to take it as real

722
00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:55,679
evidence that that you know

723
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:57,520
that this could be a theorem you know a

724
00:27:02,310 --> 00:26:59,679
real a real genuine

725
00:27:03,430 --> 00:27:02,320
sure to be true result very uneasy about

726
00:27:09,750 --> 00:27:03,440
it

727
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:09,760
i mean i know how i i can reproduce the

728
00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:12,000
proof i know how it works in that sense

729
00:27:15,909 --> 00:27:14,640
but why the hell does it work you know

730
00:27:17,669 --> 00:27:15,919
it shouldn't work

731
00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:17,679
and then what is its connection to

732
00:27:20,230 --> 00:27:19,520
reality how is it that we can think this

733
00:27:23,029 --> 00:27:20,240
and it's true

734
00:27:24,389 --> 00:27:23,039
is that what you mean by no yeah yeah

735
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:24,399
yeah that's that's sort of

736
00:27:30,149 --> 00:27:27,600
that's that's behind it all uh for sure

737
00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:30,159
but in particular there are assumptions

738
00:27:33,990 --> 00:27:30,880
made

739
00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:34,000
for this little argument to go and

740
00:27:37,510 --> 00:27:35,520
here that here here are here are some of

741
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:37,520
the assumptions first of all the real

742
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:39,120
numbers and the points on the line

743
00:27:44,070 --> 00:27:41,120
correspond

744
00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:44,080
okay so the geometric line between 0 and

745
00:27:48,149 --> 00:27:44,720
1

746
00:27:50,950 --> 00:27:48,159
and the uncountable infinity

747
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:50,960
uh between zero and one real numbers

748
00:27:55,269 --> 00:27:51,520
they're

749
00:27:57,830 --> 00:27:55,279
yeah okay

750
00:27:59,590 --> 00:27:57,840
um it's an obvious assumption to make

751
00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:59,600
given the long history of analytic

752
00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:00,480
geometry

753
00:28:05,990 --> 00:28:03,520
but i just want to make sure it's there

754
00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:06,000
second thing when you threw a dart and i

755
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:08,000
threw a dart

756
00:28:13,590 --> 00:28:11,039
each each of us hits a point at random

757
00:28:14,389 --> 00:28:13,600
um the chance of hitting any point along

758
00:28:17,350 --> 00:28:14,399
the line

759
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:17,360
is is no different than any other point

760
00:28:20,549 --> 00:28:17,840
okay

761
00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:20,559
it's equi-probability for every point

762
00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:21,279
okay

763
00:28:24,870 --> 00:28:23,200
my that's true for my dart also true for

764
00:28:28,149 --> 00:28:24,880
your day

765
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:28,159
there's a symmetry between our throws

766
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:29,760
in the sense that it doesn't matter if

767
00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:32,240
you throw first and i throw second

768
00:28:35,909 --> 00:28:34,080
or i throw first and you throw a second

769
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:35,919
or if we throw simultaneously

770
00:28:39,909 --> 00:28:38,640
it's irrelevant and finally uh

771
00:28:42,149 --> 00:28:39,919
independence

772
00:28:43,510 --> 00:28:42,159
the your result has no effect on my

773
00:28:46,070 --> 00:28:43,520
result

774
00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:46,080
vice versa okay now when you think of

775
00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:47,440
all of those assumptions these are

776
00:28:53,350 --> 00:28:49,600
crucial assumptions

777
00:28:55,830 --> 00:28:53,360
um things like probability

778
00:28:57,029 --> 00:28:55,840
uh can be captured completely inside set

779
00:28:58,549 --> 00:28:57,039
theory

780
00:29:00,470 --> 00:28:58,559
independence can be captured in

781
00:29:03,750 --> 00:29:00,480
completely inside set theory

782
00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:03,760
um the symmetry of the two ethos can be

783
00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:06,000
captured completely inside symmetry

784
00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:08,880
how come the damn argument works because

785
00:29:16,149 --> 00:29:09,760
if i

786
00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:16,159
of my little argument or the symmetry or

787
00:29:19,669 --> 00:29:18,000
the independence i tried to spell it out

788
00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:19,679
in standard mathematics

789
00:29:25,190 --> 00:29:23,120
and could get that result then

790
00:29:26,549 --> 00:29:25,200
then then something would have gone

791
00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:26,559
terribly wrong

792
00:29:30,870 --> 00:29:29,440
i can't get that result from ordinary

793
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:30,880
mathematics

794
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:34,480
so the probability in my

795
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:37,200
argument the independence in the

796
00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:38,000
argument

797
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:43,279
the probability symmetry and

798
00:29:47,510 --> 00:29:45,840
independence of standard mathematics

799
00:29:50,310 --> 00:29:47,520
something else something weird is going

800
00:29:51,269 --> 00:29:50,320
on it's it must be a related but a

801
00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:51,279
different concept

802
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:53,520
in each case what do you think is going

803
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:55,919
on i think it's a thick concept

804
00:29:59,110 --> 00:29:58,240
i think probability as we normally use

805
00:30:02,710 --> 00:29:59,120
it is a thin

806
00:30:06,389 --> 00:30:02,720
concept thin mathematical concept

807
00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:06,399
i think in the dart thought experiment

808
00:30:10,310 --> 00:30:08,720
to refute the continuing hypothesis i

809
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:10,320
think probability has taken on

810
00:30:16,549 --> 00:30:13,360
a new richness

811
00:30:19,750 --> 00:30:16,559
in the example it's become

812
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:19,760
physicalized in some sense

813
00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:21,760
and so here's where i'm looking at the

814
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:23,919
analogy with ethics

815
00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:26,080
instead of a thin concept from

816
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:27,360
mathematics

817
00:30:31,269 --> 00:30:29,520
or a thin concept from physics i've got

818
00:30:33,909 --> 00:30:31,279
a thick

819
00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:33,919
this is thick probability it's got both

820
00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:34,480
physical

821
00:30:41,190 --> 00:30:37,520
and mathematical aspects to it like

822
00:30:41,590 --> 00:30:41,200
like courageous is both in set theory we

823
00:30:45,029 --> 00:30:41,600
can

824
00:30:47,269 --> 00:30:45,039
formalize probability yep so what's

825
00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:47,279
what's thick about this just the just

826
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:48,640
throwing the dart but we can

827
00:30:51,990 --> 00:30:50,640
not use the dart and say we pick a point

828
00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:52,000
at random

829
00:30:56,149 --> 00:30:53,919
and there's obviously random variables

830
00:30:58,310 --> 00:30:56,159
and which have nothing to do with darts

831
00:30:59,350 --> 00:30:58,320
so what's what's thick i i don't hear

832
00:31:02,389 --> 00:30:59,360
what's thick

833
00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:02,399
about this i don't know maybe i'm thick

834
00:31:05,669 --> 00:31:04,960
you gotta help no no not at all the the

835
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:05,679
thickness

836
00:31:11,430 --> 00:31:08,799
the thought experiment is done you're

837
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:11,440
supposed to imagine yourself throwing a

838
00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:14,799
a dart at an actual line try to

839
00:31:17,990 --> 00:31:16,240
try to make it physical even if you

840
00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:18,000
think it's mathematical it's outside of

841
00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:19,200
set theory

842
00:31:22,710 --> 00:31:21,039
why do you have to imagine that why

843
00:31:24,950 --> 00:31:22,720
can't you just say pick a point

844
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:24,960
at random instead of throwing a dart is

845
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:26,880
there a difference

846
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:30,320
well the dart the dart is is supposed to

847
00:31:33,590 --> 00:31:32,480
be a guarantee that it's genuinely at

848
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:33,600
random

849
00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:36,080
um if i asked you to pick a real number

850
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:36,960
between zero

851
00:31:43,750 --> 00:31:40,399
and one at random i'm almost certain you

852
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:47,110
um i know i know what i'm saying is that

853
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:48,559
you can formalize

854
00:31:53,190 --> 00:31:50,320
what it means to pick a number from zero

855
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,200
to one randomly

856
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:55,679
in statistics independent of saying

857
00:31:58,630 --> 00:31:56,799
throw a dart

858
00:32:00,470 --> 00:31:58,640
and you can formalize it with set theory

859
00:32:03,509 --> 00:32:00,480
you know

860
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:03,519
um yeah yeah yeah that's true that's

861
00:32:07,350 --> 00:32:04,799
certainly true

862
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:07,360
uh the thing is well here's what here's

863
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:09,679
what i'm i am faced with

864
00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:12,960
and you're faced with uh if we assume

865
00:32:16,389 --> 00:32:14,720
that the argument works

866
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:16,399
the frightening argument works as a

867
00:32:21,830 --> 00:32:18,960
refutation we assume it works

868
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:21,840
and and um and it does seem to make

869
00:32:25,669 --> 00:32:23,279
these crucial assumptions

870
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:25,679
well it assumes mello frankel said three

871
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:26,720
with choice

872
00:32:31,509 --> 00:32:29,919
okay and and then it assumes the the

873
00:32:33,269 --> 00:32:31,519
randomness of the dark throw

874
00:32:35,269 --> 00:32:33,279
the the symmetry of the dark throw the

875
00:32:36,789 --> 00:32:35,279
independence of the dark throne

876
00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:36,799
and the correspondence between real

877
00:32:42,310 --> 00:32:38,880
numbers and points on a line

878
00:32:43,190 --> 00:32:42,320
it assumes that if that if all of that

879
00:32:47,190 --> 00:32:43,200
is just

880
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:47,200
part of mathematics existing mathematics

881
00:32:53,350 --> 00:32:50,640
then we would have derived a refutation

882
00:32:53,669 --> 00:32:53,360
of the continuum hypothesis inside

883
00:32:57,029 --> 00:32:53,679
that's

884
00:32:58,549 --> 00:32:57,039
wouldn't have been independent after all

885
00:33:00,470 --> 00:32:58,559
right since it is independent

886
00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:00,480
demonstrably independent

887
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:02,880
one of those premises has to be false i

888
00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:04,000
think i think

889
00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:07,120
and so uh if i just say well let's take

890
00:33:10,710 --> 00:33:08,480
the randomness one

891
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:10,720
i don't know which one is false at least

892
00:33:14,870 --> 00:33:12,480
one of them has got to be false

893
00:33:15,509 --> 00:33:14,880
so the randomness one is fault there

894
00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:15,519
must be

895
00:33:20,950 --> 00:33:19,360
um the randomness that we're assuming in

896
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:20,960
the thought experiment cannot be

897
00:33:27,909 --> 00:33:24,559
analyzed in normal set theory terms

898
00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:27,919
it's got to have some kind of physical

899
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:31,360
component that enriches it so that we

900
00:33:39,269 --> 00:33:37,750
so that's where this is where the thick

901
00:33:41,990 --> 00:33:39,279
concepts come i see

902
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:42,000
so it's it becomes not ordinary

903
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:42,960
randomness

904
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:46,559
in in standard math it's becomes a thick

905
00:33:50,870 --> 00:33:48,480
randomness it's got a physical

906
00:33:52,710 --> 00:33:50,880
it's become physicalized in some

907
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:52,720
important sense now you say physicalized

908
00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:53,679
with a grimace

909
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:56,480
is that because there is you're a

910
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:57,919
platonist and you feel like

911
00:34:01,430 --> 00:34:00,559
well if it's not a thinned mathematical

912
00:34:02,789 --> 00:34:01,440
by the way is there

913
00:34:04,830 --> 00:34:02,799
is there a connection between thin and

914
00:34:08,149 --> 00:34:04,840
thick and platinism and

915
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:08,159
non-platonism i don't know um

916
00:34:11,190 --> 00:34:09,839
most of the people who talk about thick

917
00:34:14,389 --> 00:34:11,200
and thin

918
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:14,399
uh in ethics what they are

919
00:34:20,550 --> 00:34:17,440
um they often conclude uh that this is

920
00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:20,560
the end of the fact value distinction

921
00:34:24,069 --> 00:34:22,240
so if you think of facts as part of the

922
00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:24,079
physical realm and if you were a

923
00:34:27,990 --> 00:34:26,240
platonist about ethics

924
00:34:30,069 --> 00:34:28,000
and and they're declaring the end of

925
00:34:33,430 --> 00:34:30,079
this dichotomy between

926
00:34:36,230 --> 00:34:33,440
moral reality and physical reality

927
00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:36,240
um then i'm not sure about the status of

928
00:34:41,510 --> 00:34:39,280
moral reality when it's all over

929
00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:41,520
i would like to think it's still there

930
00:34:46,149 --> 00:34:42,720
and these are

931
00:34:50,069 --> 00:34:46,159
a kind of hybrid um human made

932
00:34:51,589 --> 00:34:50,079
concepts in both in ethics and in math

933
00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:51,599
supposed to say that you would like to

934
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:54,000
believe that morals are a part

935
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:56,800
of of the platonistic world or a moral

936
00:35:00,310 --> 00:34:57,599
oh definitely

937
00:35:02,230 --> 00:35:00,320
yeah yeah i'm a moral realist yeah for

938
00:35:04,069 --> 00:35:02,240
me there's um

939
00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:04,079
i hate the i hate the distinction

940
00:35:09,109 --> 00:35:06,480
between fact and value

941
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:09,119
because it makes it sound like values

942
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:09,599
aren't

943
00:35:13,270 --> 00:35:11,119
themselves facts but they are they're

944
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:13,280
moral facts uh murder is uh

945
00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:16,320
is wrong that's a moral fact setting

946
00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:18,320
kittens on fire for pleasure to watch

947
00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:19,040
them burn

948
00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:21,839
and suffer that's it's a moral fact that

949
00:35:25,270 --> 00:35:22,240
that's

950
00:35:26,790 --> 00:35:25,280
uh wrong how how do we get to

951
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:26,800
how do we get that moral fact where does

952
00:35:31,829 --> 00:35:29,040
that moral fact come from

953
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:31,839
okay now this is this is this gets back

954
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:33,119
to the the problem

955
00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:36,000
a simultaneous problem for both ethics

956
00:35:40,390 --> 00:35:37,760
and for mathematics

957
00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:40,400
so uh most platonists believe not only

958
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:42,480
in the reality of mathematics

959
00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:44,000
and if you're a platonist about ethics

960
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:46,000
or a moral realist you believe in

961
00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:47,280
objective moral

962
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:50,800
facts the the big problem and the thing

963
00:35:52,870 --> 00:35:51,440
that

964
00:35:55,109 --> 00:35:52,880
people who are empiricists and

965
00:35:58,790 --> 00:35:55,119
naturalists complain about is

966
00:36:01,030 --> 00:35:58,800
you have no access to these facts

967
00:36:02,390 --> 00:36:01,040
even if they did exist because you can

968
00:36:05,190 --> 00:36:02,400
see smell

969
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:05,200
touch and so on but if these live in a

970
00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:06,640
realm completely

971
00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:08,400
separate from us you have no contact

972
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:10,240
with them you couldn't learn about them

973
00:36:16,710 --> 00:36:13,440
and so on and so on the response from

974
00:36:20,790 --> 00:36:16,720
uh moral realists platonus

975
00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:20,800
um is to appeal to um intuition

976
00:36:29,829 --> 00:36:24,720
an intuition is a cognitive capacity

977
00:36:32,950 --> 00:36:29,839
that we have that will give us

978
00:36:36,069 --> 00:36:32,960
knowledge so to take math

979
00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:36,079
we have everybody has you know scads of

980
00:36:39,990 --> 00:36:37,920
moral intuitions about math

981
00:36:42,150 --> 00:36:40,000
even if you had almost no mathematical

982
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:42,160
training you have a powerful intuition

983
00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:44,079
that two plus two equals four

984
00:36:48,310 --> 00:36:46,480
and that's a moral intuition sorry no a

985
00:36:50,470 --> 00:36:48,320
mathematical intuition

986
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:50,480
uh that two plus two equals four and if

987
00:36:53,349 --> 00:36:51,520
i pressed you and i said

988
00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:53,359
oh look i just read in the newspaper

989
00:36:59,349 --> 00:36:55,839
today that

990
00:37:01,589 --> 00:36:59,359
you know in in brazil

991
00:37:02,390 --> 00:37:01,599
some wonderful physicists in brazil have

992
00:37:04,630 --> 00:37:02,400
just

993
00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:04,640
done some fine-tuned measurements and

994
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:06,400
they have discovered that

995
00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:08,720
two plus two actually equals three point

996
00:37:11,349 --> 00:37:11,040
nine five it doesn't equal four after

997
00:37:15,589 --> 00:37:11,359
all

998
00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:15,599
me germain because there was a recent

999
00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:17,119
controversy about two plus two equals

1000
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:18,640
five i don't know if you've heard of it

1001
00:37:26,550 --> 00:37:24,870
no no no the other side was being

1002
00:37:29,670 --> 00:37:26,560
serious it was

1003
00:37:31,270 --> 00:37:29,680
it was because they were saying that the

1004
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:31,280
way that math is set up is

1005
00:37:36,310 --> 00:37:34,480
western and it's not taking into account

1006
00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:36,320
other modes of knowing and there are

1007
00:37:39,510 --> 00:37:38,320
possible worlds where two plus two could

1008
00:37:40,550 --> 00:37:39,520
equal five and in different

1009
00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:40,560
interpretations

1010
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:42,079
which it's true i mean if you have

1011
00:37:44,950 --> 00:37:43,680
modulo something i'm sure you can make

1012
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:44,960
two plus two equal five

1013
00:37:48,150 --> 00:37:46,320
or you round oh no you're gonna have

1014
00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:48,160
modular you're absolutely right

1015
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:49,760
but it doesn't mean may be some

1016
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:51,760
interpretation and there's probably good

1017
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:53,200
rules of thumb

1018
00:37:57,430 --> 00:37:56,320
in in some sciences where you you're now

1019
00:37:59,589 --> 00:37:57,440
not talking

1020
00:38:01,270 --> 00:37:59,599
two plus two you're talking about two

1021
00:38:04,950 --> 00:38:01,280
somethings and two some things

1022
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:04,960
so if you're talking about what is it

1023
00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:07,440
water a liter of water mixed with a

1024
00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:08,960
liter of alcohol

1025
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:11,040
perhaps doesn't give you two liters of

1026
00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:13,680
liquid it gives you something like 1.9

1027
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:15,760
liters of liquid because of the you know

1028
00:38:20,710 --> 00:38:18,480
the some atomic goings-on

1029
00:38:23,109 --> 00:38:20,720
reduces the the volume of the whole

1030
00:38:27,030 --> 00:38:24,790
you could you might conveniently talk

1031
00:38:28,630 --> 00:38:27,040
that way yeah because you're in the lab

1032
00:38:31,670 --> 00:38:28,640
and it's very constrained

1033
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:31,680
but no two plus two equals four and more

1034
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:32,400
generally

1035
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:34,000
you know a little bit of arithmetic and

1036
00:38:40,230 --> 00:38:36,800
then i can become abstract and i can say

1037
00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:40,240
um any number m and any number

1038
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:43,440
n if i add them together m

1039
00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:46,480
plus n it's going to equal n plus

1040
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:48,880
m and everybody they think about that

1041
00:38:50,550 --> 00:38:50,160
for a minute and a half and say yeah

1042
00:38:53,829 --> 00:38:50,560
yeah

1043
00:38:55,270 --> 00:38:53,839
right i see it yes it's true and it has

1044
00:38:57,510 --> 00:38:55,280
to be true

1045
00:38:59,190 --> 00:38:57,520
that's an example of a mathematical

1046
00:39:02,870 --> 00:38:59,200
intuition okay

1047
00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:02,880
okay okay it's not empirical though um

1048
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:05,760
math and ethics have been the two thorns

1049
00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:07,680
in the side of empiricism

1050
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:10,000
okay um just for a second because i'm

1051
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:11,280
trying to wrap my head around this when

1052
00:39:13,589 --> 00:39:11,760
you have n

1053
00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:13,599
plus when you have like a plus b equals

1054
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:16,640
b plus a just so that it's clear for

1055
00:39:20,470 --> 00:39:19,280
do we not define that with the addition

1056
00:39:22,069 --> 00:39:20,480
being commutative

1057
00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:22,079
like you and then we make a model and

1058
00:39:27,670 --> 00:39:24,320
say that our numbers correspond to it

1059
00:39:29,670 --> 00:39:27,680
we we we do but um uh

1060
00:39:31,589 --> 00:39:29,680
people's elementary experience with

1061
00:39:34,150 --> 00:39:31,599
arithmetic would lead them

1062
00:39:35,910 --> 00:39:34,160
in that very direction okay they've done

1063
00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:35,920
enough adding that they've been making

1064
00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:37,760
change they've been counting pebbles

1065
00:39:42,069 --> 00:39:40,640
who knows what um and after a while they

1066
00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:42,079
come to realize that whether they've

1067
00:39:45,109 --> 00:39:43,040
been told

1068
00:39:46,710 --> 00:39:45,119
that the community okay you're strictly

1069
00:39:47,430 --> 00:39:46,720
speaking about the intuition behind it

1070
00:39:51,270 --> 00:39:47,440
not

1071
00:39:53,589 --> 00:39:51,280
proving it to be true that's right uh

1072
00:39:54,790 --> 00:39:53,599
because to the audience to be true

1073
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:54,800
that's really interesting

1074
00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:57,680
we actually assume it in in the way that

1075
00:39:59,910 --> 00:39:59,359
we define addition and multiplication

1076
00:40:03,270 --> 00:39:59,920
that they're

1077
00:40:05,430 --> 00:40:03,280
doing arithmetic in any formal sense

1078
00:40:08,230 --> 00:40:05,440
we typically start out with something

1079
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:08,240
known as the piano axioms

1080
00:40:11,510 --> 00:40:10,560
okay and they tell us how to add how to

1081
00:40:13,109 --> 00:40:11,520
multiply

1082
00:40:14,870 --> 00:40:13,119
and they give us a principle called

1083
00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:14,880
mathematical induction

1084
00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:16,800
and then everything in arithmetic

1085
00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:18,000
follows

1086
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:20,000
well i need to qualify that almost

1087
00:40:23,670 --> 00:40:21,599
everything in arithmetic follows

1088
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:23,680
there is a problem about completeness

1089
00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:25,440
but never mind that

1090
00:40:29,510 --> 00:40:28,000
um and everybody's intuition if you've

1091
00:40:32,309 --> 00:40:29,520
been playing with arithmetic

1092
00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:32,319
for a while you'd say yeah this is the

1093
00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:33,440
truth this is how

1094
00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:34,800
addition works this is how

1095
00:40:38,069 --> 00:40:36,720
multiplication works okay let's not get

1096
00:40:39,910 --> 00:40:38,079
hung up on it let's assume

1097
00:40:41,829 --> 00:40:39,920
that okay that's an interesting strong

1098
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:41,839
intuition those are examples of

1099
00:40:46,150 --> 00:40:43,040
intuitions

1100
00:40:49,510 --> 00:40:46,160
now uh we have the same thing in ethics

1101
00:40:52,309 --> 00:40:49,520
so um um if you saw

1102
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:52,319
somebody if you saw some teenage kids

1103
00:40:56,230 --> 00:40:53,200
catch a kitten

1104
00:40:57,910 --> 00:40:56,240
pour gasoline on it set it on fire you

1105
00:40:59,030 --> 00:40:57,920
would be aghast you would be morally

1106
00:41:02,069 --> 00:40:59,040
outraged

1107
00:41:05,190 --> 00:41:02,079
um you have a very strong moral

1108
00:41:08,069 --> 00:41:05,200
intuition that that was an evil thing to

1109
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:08,079
do but those kids don't

1110
00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:11,200
uh they might they might and they're

1111
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:12,800
just uh overwhelmed by

1112
00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:15,119
peer pressure and gang behavior and

1113
00:41:18,309 --> 00:41:16,640
stuff like that

1114
00:41:19,910 --> 00:41:18,319
and then you're right they might not

1115
00:41:21,510 --> 00:41:19,920
even yeah unless i imagine they might

1116
00:41:24,550 --> 00:41:21,520
now let's take the edge case the which

1117
00:41:27,109 --> 00:41:24,560
the edge cases just to investigate this

1118
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:27,119
so what if they genuinely don't have

1119
00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:28,400
anything wrong with that like genghis

1120
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:29,920
khan for example said

1121
00:41:33,910 --> 00:41:31,920
the best of life would be conquering his

1122
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:33,920
enemies and enslaving their women and

1123
00:41:37,430 --> 00:41:35,040
now we look at that

1124
00:41:39,030 --> 00:41:37,440
and say that that's ridiculous but let's

1125
00:41:40,950 --> 00:41:39,040
believe him that that actually

1126
00:41:42,309 --> 00:41:40,960
invoked pleasure in him and he thought

1127
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:42,319
that was morally

1128
00:41:48,390 --> 00:41:45,760
correct okay okay i don't know

1129
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:48,400
i don't know enough about him to know

1130
00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:49,760
exactly what's going on

1131
00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:51,440
so i'll give you the short answer and

1132
00:41:55,109 --> 00:41:53,280
that is we've made a hell of a lot of

1133
00:41:57,990 --> 00:41:55,119
moral progress

1134
00:41:58,630 --> 00:41:58,000
since since that announcement right how

1135
00:42:01,990 --> 00:41:58,640
do we

1136
00:42:03,670 --> 00:42:02,000
made moral progress without already

1137
00:42:05,349 --> 00:42:03,680
assuming what we're trying to prove

1138
00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:05,359
that's a very difficult that's an

1139
00:42:10,790 --> 00:42:07,280
extremely difficult question

1140
00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:10,800
um i don't want to say well

1141
00:42:17,030 --> 00:42:13,920
my views have won over the long run

1142
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:17,040
um though they have like my view is we

1143
00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:18,240
shouldn't have slavery

1144
00:42:22,230 --> 00:42:20,160
and almost everybody agrees with that

1145
00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:22,240
now my view is that women

1146
00:42:26,150 --> 00:42:24,640
should be treated equally with men and

1147
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:26,160
most people agree with that now that

1148
00:42:32,309 --> 00:42:28,160
they wouldn't have a century ago

1149
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:32,319
my view is that um um gays and lesbians

1150
00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:32,640
and

1151
00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:42,160
uh at least a strong majority of

1152
00:42:45,750 --> 00:42:44,560
canadians if not a strong majority of

1153
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:45,760
the world population

1154
00:42:51,790 --> 00:42:49,520
agree with that so um

1155
00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:51,800
i i don't have a hard and fast

1156
00:42:56,390 --> 00:42:53,920
non-circular argument

1157
00:42:58,550 --> 00:42:56,400
i can say that as people think about

1158
00:43:01,190 --> 00:42:58,560
these things over time

1159
00:43:02,230 --> 00:43:01,200
they tend to change their views in the

1160
00:43:05,589 --> 00:43:02,240
direction

1161
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:05,599
that that we have come not many people

1162
00:43:08,950 --> 00:43:06,240
were

1163
00:43:10,950 --> 00:43:08,960
against slavery for years and years and

1164
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:10,960
then had an epiphany and said

1165
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:13,119
i made a terrible mistake i think we

1166
00:43:15,910 --> 00:43:14,640
should have slaves i think that would be

1167
00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:15,920
a great idea

1168
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:18,000
okay people don't go in that direction

1169
00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:19,599
let me let me press for a bit i actually

1170
00:43:22,790 --> 00:43:20,880
agree with you but here's what i'm

1171
00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:22,800
thinking here's what pops into my head

1172
00:43:26,309 --> 00:43:25,760
so social consensus what is required and

1173
00:43:27,750 --> 00:43:26,319
what if

1174
00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:27,760
10 years from now you know there's some

1175
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:29,680
evidence that people who are on the

1176
00:43:34,069 --> 00:43:32,000
lower end of the iq spectrum have more

1177
00:43:36,230 --> 00:43:34,079
children let's just imagine that many

1178
00:43:37,510 --> 00:43:36,240
people and we can even demean them and

1179
00:43:39,109 --> 00:43:37,520
say conservatives

1180
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:39,119
like let's say we're let's imagine that

1181
00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:40,960
we're supporters that's we're aggressive

1182
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:41,520
liberals

1183
00:43:45,430 --> 00:43:42,800
i'm not even i'm not saying we are but

1184
00:43:47,109 --> 00:43:45,440
let's see okay these foolish reactionary

1185
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:47,119
conservatives are the ones that populate

1186
00:43:51,109 --> 00:43:49,200
the earth and then they like its slavery

1187
00:43:52,390 --> 00:43:51,119
later and the majority of the earth like

1188
00:43:53,670 --> 00:43:52,400
slavery except those who are enslaved

1189
00:43:57,670 --> 00:43:53,680
but they're a minority

1190
00:44:00,870 --> 00:43:57,680
does that make that correct no

1191
00:44:03,510 --> 00:44:00,880
okay no no no no so what's the reason

1192
00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:03,520
okay so there's two questions um is

1193
00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:05,200
there such a thing as objective right or

1194
00:44:08,710 --> 00:44:06,319
wrong

1195
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:08,720
yes i mean correct is there is there is

1196
00:44:12,870 --> 00:44:09,680
there an objective

1197
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:12,880
shape of the earth yes

1198
00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:16,160
i think it's round it's spherical

1199
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:18,000
and i think we've got a ton of evidence

1200
00:44:21,430 --> 00:44:19,440
that this is so

1201
00:44:22,630 --> 00:44:21,440
but if for some reason in the future

1202
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:22,640
people said no

1203
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:26,160
we're pretty sure it's flat um

1204
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:29,920
and then i would say well i pity that

1205
00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:32,400
future civilization they've got it wrong

1206
00:44:35,589 --> 00:44:35,200
they've made a terrible mistake that's

1207
00:44:39,910 --> 00:44:35,599
fact

1208
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:39,920
people actually said well i

1209
00:44:43,030 --> 00:44:41,680
we think we think slavery is a pretty

1210
00:44:46,069 --> 00:44:43,040
good idea

1211
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:46,079
um i'd say no you're i would say they've

1212
00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:48,400
made a terrible terrible mistake

1213
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:50,880
but um i acknowledge the possibility

1214
00:44:54,470 --> 00:44:52,800
that it could happen

1215
00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:54,480
germany was a very germany is a very

1216
00:44:59,589 --> 00:44:56,960
progressive country uh in the

1217
00:45:00,470 --> 00:44:59,599
you know uh 19th and very early 20th

1218
00:45:03,910 --> 00:45:00,480
century

1219
00:45:05,670 --> 00:45:03,920
and then by the time you know horrible

1220
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:05,680
calamities in

1221
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:09,280
in the in the 30s hitler comes to power

1222
00:45:14,069 --> 00:45:11,040
and a majority of germans are willing to

1223
00:45:15,910 --> 00:45:14,079
go along with some pretty horrific views

1224
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:15,920
uh-huh yeah they're just wrong they're

1225
00:45:20,150 --> 00:45:17,440
just wrong

1226
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:20,160
okay we can talk about that another time

1227
00:45:21,829 --> 00:45:20,480
but

1228
00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:21,839
basically my argument was this well

1229
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:23,520
first of all i want to make it clear to

1230
00:45:26,309 --> 00:45:24,720
the people who are watching that i don't

1231
00:45:28,470 --> 00:45:26,319
think low iq people are conservative

1232
00:45:29,829 --> 00:45:28,480
i was just straw manny for the sake of

1233
00:45:31,990 --> 00:45:29,839
argument okay

1234
00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:32,000
second i thought that what you were

1235
00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:33,280
suggesting was given

1236
00:45:38,950 --> 00:45:36,720
that we have a line toward

1237
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:38,960
something that over time people believe

1238
00:45:42,069 --> 00:45:40,319
in a certain value

1239
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:42,079
that's evidence that the value is

1240
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:43,520
objectively correct and then i was

1241
00:45:45,910 --> 00:45:44,160
saying well

1242
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:45,920
what if that reverses or we go into

1243
00:45:48,390 --> 00:45:47,440
another direction and then you're saying

1244
00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:48,400
no that's wrong

1245
00:45:53,910 --> 00:45:51,520
but how does that not jive with saying

1246
00:45:55,349 --> 00:45:53,920
that there's societal movement towards a

1247
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:55,359
certain direction and that

1248
00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:57,280
corresponds to being objectively correct

1249
00:46:01,829 --> 00:45:58,960
morally no no it's

1250
00:46:03,349 --> 00:46:01,839
this is this is a very good question and

1251
00:46:05,510 --> 00:46:03,359
it's very hard to answer

1252
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:05,520
i don't have a terrific answer i only

1253
00:46:10,710 --> 00:46:07,359
have a weak answer

1254
00:46:12,309 --> 00:46:10,720
and my weak answer is that um it's like

1255
00:46:18,309 --> 00:46:12,319
science

1256
00:46:19,990 --> 00:46:18,319
it's possible that what we believe today

1257
00:46:21,589 --> 00:46:20,000
about let's say quantum mechanics and

1258
00:46:23,750 --> 00:46:21,599
relativity

1259
00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:23,760
a hundred years from now people will say

1260
00:46:27,910 --> 00:46:24,800
ah

1261
00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:27,920
i don't know let's go back to newton

1262
00:46:31,910 --> 00:46:28,720
let's believe

1263
00:46:32,390 --> 00:46:31,920
newton okay i think i think the chances

1264
00:46:35,190 --> 00:46:32,400
of that

1265
00:46:36,150 --> 00:46:35,200
are minuscule and the thing is that

1266
00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:36,160
there's been

1267
00:46:39,670 --> 00:46:38,560
incremental evidence it's fallible

1268
00:46:43,829 --> 00:46:39,680
evidence

1269
00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:43,839
pushes people

1270
00:46:49,589 --> 00:46:47,119
upwards okay it makes us brighter we

1271
00:46:52,390 --> 00:46:49,599
know more we're more sophisticated

1272
00:46:53,190 --> 00:46:52,400
in physics and i think something like

1273
00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:53,200
that

1274
00:46:58,069 --> 00:46:56,480
goes on in our moral and political lives

1275
00:47:00,550 --> 00:46:58,079
too

1276
00:47:02,470 --> 00:47:00,560
interesting okay now with regards to

1277
00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:02,480
newtonian physics becoming

1278
00:47:07,910 --> 00:47:06,240
relativity and then okay we say that one

1279
00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:07,920
is more correct because it can explain

1280
00:47:10,550 --> 00:47:08,400
more

1281
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:10,560
so it's just that's a planet that's

1282
00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:11,520
evidence

1283
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:14,000
is pure explanatory power what makes the

1284
00:47:18,550 --> 00:47:15,760
theory correct

1285
00:47:18,870 --> 00:47:18,560
and the reason why i say that is oh okay

1286
00:47:22,309 --> 00:47:18,880
no

1287
00:47:25,109 --> 00:47:22,319
explanatory power is a sign is evidence

1288
00:47:28,230 --> 00:47:25,119
that it's correct

1289
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:28,240
okay um it is it this is this much is

1290
00:47:32,470 --> 00:47:29,359
logically possible

1291
00:47:34,309 --> 00:47:32,480
for anyone who's a realist that

1292
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:34,319
all the evidence could point away from

1293
00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:38,470
everything that we count as evidence

1294
00:47:43,990 --> 00:47:40,880
like is it explanatory powerful

1295
00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:44,000
yeah um does it um

1296
00:47:48,230 --> 00:47:46,640
is it incredibly accurate you know does

1297
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:48,240
it make

1298
00:47:52,870 --> 00:47:51,599
spectacular predictions to the 25th

1299
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:52,880
decimal place

1300
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:55,200
yeah might do that too and it might and

1301
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:56,960
yet in spite of all of this it might be

1302
00:48:01,670 --> 00:47:59,760
false what are your views on free will

1303
00:48:04,150 --> 00:48:01,680
by the way

1304
00:48:04,950 --> 00:48:04,160
do you believe in it yes leave against

1305
00:48:06,630 --> 00:48:04,960
it oh

1306
00:48:07,829 --> 00:48:06,640
interesting okay now are you like daniel

1307
00:48:10,549 --> 00:48:07,839
dennett where you say well i have a

1308
00:48:13,829 --> 00:48:10,559
compatibilist view

1309
00:48:17,109 --> 00:48:13,839
no i i have here i i i i

1310
00:48:17,589 --> 00:48:17,119
i feel completely at sea i speculate

1311
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:17,599
away

1312
00:48:22,549 --> 00:48:20,720
i operate i i live my life as if i have

1313
00:48:27,829 --> 00:48:22,559
free will

1314
00:48:31,109 --> 00:48:27,839
i am i eat too much and i blame myself

1315
00:48:32,710 --> 00:48:31,119
i blame my willpower and uh while it

1316
00:48:33,190 --> 00:48:32,720
would be very nice to blame something

1317
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:33,200
else

1318
00:48:39,349 --> 00:48:36,240
i can't i just blame myself i

1319
00:48:40,870 --> 00:48:39,359
i get angry at others i get angry

1320
00:48:43,270 --> 00:48:40,880
i mean some people i think can't help

1321
00:48:44,710 --> 00:48:43,280
what they believe others i think have

1322
00:48:46,710 --> 00:48:44,720
gone out of their way to make themselves

1323
00:48:49,349 --> 00:48:46,720
stupid and i blame them for that

1324
00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:49,359
so i'm i'm happy to blame people for not

1325
00:48:53,510 --> 00:48:51,440
doing what i think they ought to do

1326
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:53,520
and i do think they have free will i

1327
00:48:58,710 --> 00:48:55,520
don't know how to live in a world

1328
00:49:00,950 --> 00:48:58,720
where we really don't have free will but

1329
00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:00,960
i may have i may be just

1330
00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:03,599
highly that's not an argument for free

1331
00:49:07,829 --> 00:49:04,720
will

1332
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:07,839
that's just an argument for we have to

1333
00:49:11,990 --> 00:49:08,800
live as if

1334
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:12,000
as if there is free will um i don't know

1335
00:49:14,790 --> 00:49:12,400
how

1336
00:49:16,549 --> 00:49:14,800
uh really to live otherwise now i've

1337
00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:16,559
seen some people who are very

1338
00:49:21,589 --> 00:49:18,319
sophisticated

1339
00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:21,599
you know talk about this subject and

1340
00:49:24,630 --> 00:49:23,520
maybe they'll be able to persuade me in

1341
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:24,640
the long run

1342
00:49:28,790 --> 00:49:27,200
that we don't have free will or there's

1343
00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:28,800
a very good chance we don't have any

1344
00:49:31,829 --> 00:49:29,680
free will

1345
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:31,839
but we should we can act like this and

1346
00:49:36,390 --> 00:49:33,119
this and this and this and

1347
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:36,400
so on so i i i really

1348
00:49:42,790 --> 00:49:40,079
i i i have childish immature

1349
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:42,800
underdeveloped views about pretty well

1350
00:49:46,309 --> 00:49:44,480
the standard

1351
00:49:47,829 --> 00:49:46,319
view that's opposed to free will is well

1352
00:49:49,510 --> 00:49:47,839
what caused you to make so-and-so

1353
00:49:51,030 --> 00:49:49,520
decision and then it's your neurology

1354
00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:51,040
okay well what caused that and you keep

1355
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:52,319
going until you get to a cause that's

1356
00:49:56,230 --> 00:49:53,040
not you

1357
00:49:57,990 --> 00:49:56,240
yeah along that chain of causes right

1358
00:49:59,750 --> 00:49:58,000
right where does that chain of

1359
00:50:01,109 --> 00:49:59,760
reductionism because we just talked

1360
00:50:03,030 --> 00:50:01,119
about physics being

1361
00:50:04,390 --> 00:50:03,040
extremely powerful and more and more

1362
00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:04,400
accurate and there doesn't seem to be

1363
00:50:07,270 --> 00:50:06,160
room for free will so where does free

1364
00:50:09,430 --> 00:50:07,280
will

1365
00:50:11,349 --> 00:50:09,440
comport with our view of physics in the

1366
00:50:14,230 --> 00:50:11,359
way that it's formalized currently

1367
00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:14,240
no it's terrible um but it doesn't have

1368
00:50:16,790 --> 00:50:16,319
to be quite as crude as you just uh put

1369
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:16,800
it

1370
00:50:20,790 --> 00:50:20,240
here's another issue in which i do not

1371
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:20,800
have

1372
00:50:24,309 --> 00:50:22,800
strong views but it's sort of in the

1373
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:24,319
background and this is the difference

1374
00:50:27,589 --> 00:50:25,200
between

1375
00:50:29,030 --> 00:50:27,599
this is the issue of reductionism and

1376
00:50:31,190 --> 00:50:29,040
emergence

1377
00:50:34,230 --> 00:50:31,200
so if you have a complete reductionist

1378
00:50:36,870 --> 00:50:34,240
view and your world is deterministic

1379
00:50:37,430 --> 00:50:36,880
it's very hard to make room for a free

1380
00:50:39,670 --> 00:50:37,440
will

1381
00:50:40,549 --> 00:50:39,680
but if you have an emergenciest view

1382
00:50:42,710 --> 00:50:40,559
that is

1383
00:50:45,030 --> 00:50:42,720
yeah physics is at the bottom but in a

1384
00:50:48,150 --> 00:50:45,040
certain level of complexity

1385
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:48,160
there could emerge biological laws like

1386
00:50:52,309 --> 00:50:49,440
strong emergence

1387
00:50:53,990 --> 00:50:52,319
yeah and out of that could emerge uh

1388
00:50:57,510 --> 00:50:54,000
psychological laws

1389
00:50:59,589 --> 00:50:57,520
and so on and and free will would be

1390
00:51:00,950 --> 00:50:59,599
you know something that is emerging at

1391
00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:00,960
some higher level

1392
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:02,800
it's not gonna it's not gonna it's not

1393
00:51:05,430 --> 00:51:04,800
gonna emerge out of elementary particle

1394
00:51:07,910 --> 00:51:05,440
physics

1395
00:51:09,030 --> 00:51:07,920
i mean sometimes people try to do that

1396
00:51:11,750 --> 00:51:09,040
because they take

1397
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:11,760
quantum indeterminacy to to be uh you

1398
00:51:14,309 --> 00:51:12,240
know

1399
00:51:15,829 --> 00:51:14,319
this is stupid it's just really bad

1400
00:51:17,910 --> 00:51:15,839
arguments

1401
00:51:19,270 --> 00:51:17,920
um but if we did have some kind of

1402
00:51:22,630 --> 00:51:19,280
emergence you might have

1403
00:51:25,990 --> 00:51:22,640
you might have free will right but i

1404
00:51:29,030 --> 00:51:26,000
again i i can't make up my mind

1405
00:51:31,109 --> 00:51:29,040
okay yeah where i was gonna go is

1406
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:31,119
there's no evidence for strong emergence

1407
00:51:33,349 --> 00:51:32,400
but there's plenty of evidence for

1408
00:51:36,870 --> 00:51:33,359
reductionism

1409
00:51:37,349 --> 00:51:36,880
like there's no link in the chain that's

1410
00:51:39,270 --> 00:51:37,359
broken

1411
00:51:40,390 --> 00:51:39,280
in the reductionist account as far as we

1412
00:51:42,549 --> 00:51:40,400
could tell

1413
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:42,559
so then to believe that we have free

1414
00:51:45,430 --> 00:51:43,839
will i don't

1415
00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:45,440
i'm not suggesting that i don't believe

1416
00:51:49,349 --> 00:51:47,680
i'm just throwing something out so to

1417
00:51:51,109 --> 00:51:49,359
believe that we have free will

1418
00:51:52,710 --> 00:51:51,119
seems to be counter to evidence so how

1419
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,720
do you jive

1420
00:51:56,309 --> 00:51:54,480
with saying that i'm a person who goes

1421
00:51:57,750 --> 00:51:56,319
wherever the evidence leads me

1422
00:51:59,270 --> 00:51:57,760
but simultaneously saying that i'm

1423
00:52:00,950 --> 00:51:59,280
someone who believes in free will and

1424
00:52:01,510 --> 00:52:00,960
when i say go wherever the evidence

1425
00:52:03,990 --> 00:52:01,520
believes

1426
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:04,000
sorry that i'm a person i'm a person who

1427
00:52:07,349 --> 00:52:05,680
goes wherever the evidence leads

1428
00:52:08,630 --> 00:52:07,359
i mean evidence in terms of scientific

1429
00:52:09,910 --> 00:52:08,640
evidence because obviously you can be a

1430
00:52:11,109 --> 00:52:09,920
spiritualist and say well i have the

1431
00:52:14,549 --> 00:52:11,119
intuitions

1432
00:52:18,069 --> 00:52:14,559
curious so what do you say to that

1433
00:52:21,190 --> 00:52:18,079
um well i'm i i i do

1434
00:52:23,190 --> 00:52:21,200
uh um i do count myself as somebody

1435
00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:23,200
who's led by the evidence

1436
00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:24,720
scientific on the other hand on the

1437
00:52:27,349 --> 00:52:26,720
other hand i'm not i don't agree with

1438
00:52:32,470 --> 00:52:27,359
you about

1439
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:32,480
um we it's uh there's no gaps in the

1440
00:52:36,150 --> 00:52:35,440
going from us to elementary particles i

1441
00:52:39,349 --> 00:52:36,160
mean

1442
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:39,359
try to imagine

1443
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:42,720
um accounting for donald trump's

1444
00:52:46,549 --> 00:52:44,640
election

1445
00:52:48,710 --> 00:52:46,559
in terms of writing down the schrodinger

1446
00:52:50,069 --> 00:52:48,720
equation for the population of the world

1447
00:52:51,910 --> 00:52:50,079
what i meant and then solving it and

1448
00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:51,920
getting out

1449
00:52:56,390 --> 00:52:54,480
donald trump what i meant was that so

1450
00:52:58,069 --> 00:52:56,400
far there's no link that's been shown

1451
00:53:01,270 --> 00:52:58,079
to be false that doesn't mean that there

1452
00:53:03,030 --> 00:53:01,280
is no no i i i i completely agree with

1453
00:53:04,150 --> 00:53:03,040
you so there's no evidence for anyway

1454
00:53:05,829 --> 00:53:04,160
and there's plenty of women it's very

1455
00:53:06,790 --> 00:53:05,839
reliable that would be like religious

1456
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:06,800
people who argue

1457
00:53:10,630 --> 00:53:09,440
for the god of the gaps god fills in the

1458
00:53:12,309 --> 00:53:10,640
gaps in

1459
00:53:14,390 --> 00:53:12,319
our scientific knowledge yeah it's a

1460
00:53:15,750 --> 00:53:14,400
foolish way of doing it let's talk about

1461
00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:15,760
platonism do you mind defining for the

1462
00:53:21,349 --> 00:53:18,079
audience what platonism is

1463
00:53:24,470 --> 00:53:21,359
sure um

1464
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:24,480
modern platonism as opposed to being a

1465
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:26,880
strict follower of plato

1466
00:53:34,230 --> 00:53:30,240
modern platonism is simply the view that

1467
00:53:37,270 --> 00:53:34,240
uh there are abstract entities

1468
00:53:39,829 --> 00:53:37,280
numbers being the most obvious um

1469
00:53:41,109 --> 00:53:39,839
example of this they have exist in some

1470
00:53:44,309 --> 00:53:41,119
way shape or form

1471
00:53:47,270 --> 00:53:44,319
yep they're real they exist um

1472
00:53:49,030 --> 00:53:47,280
and there are facts about them like two

1473
00:53:51,109 --> 00:53:49,040
plus two equals four

1474
00:53:52,230 --> 00:53:51,119
there are infinitely many prime numbers

1475
00:53:56,710 --> 00:53:52,240
and so on

1476
00:53:59,109 --> 00:53:56,720
and these uh objects

1477
00:54:00,150 --> 00:53:59,119
and these facts are completely

1478
00:54:03,829 --> 00:54:00,160
independent

1479
00:54:06,549 --> 00:54:03,839
from uh intelligent creatures so

1480
00:54:07,829 --> 00:54:06,559
even if no intelligent life existed

1481
00:54:09,430 --> 00:54:07,839
anywhere in the universe

1482
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:09,440
it would still be true that there are

1483
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:12,240
infinitely many prime numbers

1484
00:54:16,950 --> 00:54:14,880
if you believe that you're a platonist

1485
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:16,960
in fact there's a little litmus test for

1486
00:54:20,069 --> 00:54:18,480
audience members who've never thought

1487
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:20,079
about it before

1488
00:54:24,549 --> 00:54:23,440
ask yourself do you think mathematicians

1489
00:54:27,990 --> 00:54:24,559
discover

1490
00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:28,000
new truths of mathematics or do they

1491
00:54:34,230 --> 00:54:31,200
somehow invent or create them

1492
00:54:36,309 --> 00:54:34,240
shakespeare created hamlet

1493
00:54:37,430 --> 00:54:36,319
if shakespeare or no intelligent being

1494
00:54:41,109 --> 00:54:37,440
had ever existed

1495
00:54:44,309 --> 00:54:41,119
hamlet would not exist on the other hand

1496
00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:44,319
the spherical shape of the earth would

1497
00:54:47,670 --> 00:54:45,520
still be a fact

1498
00:54:48,789 --> 00:54:47,680
even if no intelligent being had ever

1499
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:48,799
existed

1500
00:54:52,150 --> 00:54:51,520
i say math is more like the shape of the

1501
00:54:55,910 --> 00:54:52,160
earth

1502
00:54:58,470 --> 00:54:55,920
and less like hamlet that's what it is

1503
00:54:59,910 --> 00:54:58,480
a mathematical realist or a platonist

1504
00:55:01,109 --> 00:54:59,920
when you say

1505
00:55:02,390 --> 00:55:01,119
something that just popped into my head

1506
00:55:03,910 --> 00:55:02,400
was the infinite monkeys on the

1507
00:55:05,750 --> 00:55:03,920
typewriter and then you can

1508
00:55:07,910 --> 00:55:05,760
make it an algae between shakespeare and

1509
00:55:10,069 --> 00:55:07,920
information so just say the works of

1510
00:55:11,270 --> 00:55:10,079
shakespeare is just one extremely large

1511
00:55:14,470 --> 00:55:11,280
number given that you can

1512
00:55:15,430 --> 00:55:14,480
translate it to bits isomorphically okay

1513
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:15,440
and that number

1514
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:18,160
exists so then did shakespeare actually

1515
00:55:22,710 --> 00:55:19,440
invent

1516
00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:22,720
hamlet or did he discover it no no no

1517
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:24,720
arithmetic is rich enough that it can

1518
00:55:28,950 --> 00:55:26,720
encode hamlet

1519
00:55:31,430 --> 00:55:28,960
that's all so so technically did he

1520
00:55:33,910 --> 00:55:31,440
discover it or did he create it

1521
00:55:35,349 --> 00:55:33,920
uh hamlet amlett was created by

1522
00:55:37,190 --> 00:55:35,359
shakespeare not discovered by

1523
00:55:40,230 --> 00:55:37,200
shakespeare

1524
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:40,240
okay but when the mathematician

1525
00:55:44,150 --> 00:55:41,680
discovers uh

1526
00:55:45,910 --> 00:55:44,160
or produces when euclid produced the

1527
00:55:47,349 --> 00:55:45,920
theorem that there are infinitely many

1528
00:55:50,230 --> 00:55:47,359
prime numbers

1529
00:55:51,349 --> 00:55:50,240
euclid discovered something he

1530
00:55:54,309 --> 00:55:51,359
discovered something that

1531
00:55:56,390 --> 00:55:54,319
exists that is true independent from him

1532
00:55:58,710 --> 00:55:56,400
he didn't make it up

1533
00:55:59,670 --> 00:55:58,720
i see it's not a cultural item of any

1534
00:56:02,870 --> 00:55:59,680
sort it's

1535
00:56:03,910 --> 00:56:02,880
it's as it's just a group way the world

1536
00:56:06,630 --> 00:56:03,920
is

1537
00:56:08,870 --> 00:56:06,640
i see i see i see but it's the abstract

1538
00:56:11,589 --> 00:56:08,880
world it's not a physical object

1539
00:56:13,990 --> 00:56:11,599
it's an abstract entity yeah now what

1540
00:56:16,069 --> 00:56:14,000
creates this platonic world

1541
00:56:17,670 --> 00:56:16,079
it's always been there nothing created

1542
00:56:19,349 --> 00:56:17,680
it yeah so how do we talk about the

1543
00:56:21,109 --> 00:56:19,359
platonic world without sounding mystical

1544
00:56:23,589 --> 00:56:21,119
without sounding theological it's like

1545
00:56:27,030 --> 00:56:23,599
it's always there it's not it's it's

1546
00:56:30,630 --> 00:56:27,040
ever-present it is timeless

1547
00:56:32,950 --> 00:56:30,640
it's an uncaused cause yeah

1548
00:56:34,630 --> 00:56:32,960
well you can imagine you can imagine the

1549
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:34,640
the universe the physical universe

1550
00:56:38,069 --> 00:56:36,880
always existing right

1551
00:56:40,069 --> 00:56:38,079
in fact there's a good there's good

1552
00:56:42,630 --> 00:56:40,079
reason to believe that it always has

1553
00:56:44,309 --> 00:56:42,640
i know we're we we're we talk about big

1554
00:56:47,670 --> 00:56:44,319
bang cosmology and we're

1555
00:56:51,750 --> 00:56:47,680
what 13.8 billion years old

1556
00:56:53,829 --> 00:56:51,760
but if but the inflationary scenario

1557
00:56:54,789 --> 00:56:53,839
we're probably just one of you know the

1558
00:56:56,069 --> 00:56:54,799
multiverse

1559
00:56:59,589 --> 00:56:56,079
and these things have been going on

1560
00:57:00,870 --> 00:56:59,599
forever so our mini our universe is just

1561
00:57:03,589 --> 00:57:00,880
one of a

1562
00:57:05,990 --> 00:57:03,599
infinite number of pocket universes

1563
00:57:09,109 --> 00:57:06,000
pocket universes have always existed

1564
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:09,119
and they generate more um through

1565
00:57:14,470 --> 00:57:12,160
this process called eternal inflation

1566
00:57:15,670 --> 00:57:14,480
or just go back to pre-big bang

1567
00:57:17,990 --> 00:57:15,680
cosmology

1568
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:18,000
where we used to believe standard

1569
00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:19,760
physics believed that the universe was

1570
00:57:21,829 --> 00:57:21,040
infinitely old it didn't have a

1571
00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:21,839
beginning

1572
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:24,000
and it won't have an end it just is

1573
00:57:27,829 --> 00:57:25,760
eternal

1574
00:57:29,109 --> 00:57:27,839
not created by god this is atheists

1575
00:57:32,150 --> 00:57:29,119
we're happy to believe this

1576
00:57:33,430 --> 00:57:32,160
it's just this is the way things are so

1577
00:57:37,190 --> 00:57:33,440
the platonic world

1578
00:57:40,230 --> 00:57:37,200
was always there or even to say the word

1579
00:57:41,109 --> 00:57:40,240
always implies formulating it in terms

1580
00:57:43,750 --> 00:57:41,119
of time

1581
00:57:45,430 --> 00:57:43,760
and it's timeless this is a there's an

1582
00:57:46,549 --> 00:57:45,440
old philosophical distinction we hardly

1583
00:57:49,829 --> 00:57:46,559
use anymore

1584
00:57:53,349 --> 00:57:49,839
between eternal and semp eternal

1585
00:57:57,829 --> 00:57:53,359
uh eternal eternal semp eternal so e

1586
00:58:06,230 --> 00:58:01,109
eternal means outside of time

1587
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:09,190
if if uh if numbers were somehow or

1588
00:58:12,309 --> 00:58:09,599
other

1589
00:58:14,549 --> 00:58:12,319
which a small number of people believe a

1590
00:58:17,829 --> 00:58:14,559
kind of

1591
00:58:19,430 --> 00:58:17,839
part of the physical realm but a kind

1592
00:58:21,190 --> 00:58:19,440
but somehow attached to the physical

1593
00:58:22,150 --> 00:58:21,200
realm so if the physical realm didn't

1594
00:58:29,190 --> 00:58:22,160
exist

1595
00:58:31,109 --> 00:58:29,200
simp eternal version

1596
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:31,119
so in in casual talk we say yeah it's

1597
00:58:35,829 --> 00:58:33,040
eternal it's always the case

1598
00:58:37,430 --> 00:58:35,839
but this distinction like god standard

1599
00:58:41,910 --> 00:58:37,440
view of god

1600
00:58:45,829 --> 00:58:41,920
god is eternal outside of creation

1601
00:58:48,630 --> 00:58:45,839
right uh whereas whatever god created

1602
00:58:50,069 --> 00:58:48,640
is and if god created anything that

1603
00:58:52,950 --> 00:58:50,079
lasted forever

1604
00:58:54,789 --> 00:58:52,960
in creation that would be semp eternal i

1605
00:58:55,270 --> 00:58:54,799
see i see wittgenstein had a quote about

1606
00:58:57,750 --> 00:58:55,280
this

1607
00:58:59,190 --> 00:58:57,760
he said if eternal means infinite

1608
00:59:02,470 --> 00:58:59,200
temporal length

1609
00:59:03,990 --> 00:59:02,480
then that that would be right

1610
00:59:05,910 --> 00:59:04,000
if it didn't mean that but instead meant

1611
00:59:08,870 --> 00:59:05,920
outside of time then anyone who lives in

1612
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:08,880
the present moment is living eternally

1613
00:59:13,030 --> 00:59:11,920
yeah well that's beautiful also a bit

1614
00:59:14,630 --> 00:59:13,040
mystical

1615
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:14,640
a few weeks ago i emailed or maybe a

1616
00:59:17,349 --> 00:59:15,920
couple months ago i emailed you about

1617
00:59:19,589 --> 00:59:17,359
thought experiments

1618
00:59:20,630 --> 00:59:19,599
are i don't recall how the conversation

1619
00:59:22,150 --> 00:59:20,640
started but you sent me a book on

1620
00:59:23,990 --> 00:59:22,160
thought experiments you didn't know that

1621
00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:24,000
i was thinking of writing a book i

1622
00:59:28,710 --> 00:59:26,640
actually started but your book was

1623
00:59:30,630 --> 00:59:28,720
far more articulate than mine about

1624
00:59:32,950 --> 00:59:30,640
thought experiments just

1625
00:59:33,670 --> 00:59:32,960
i recommend people who watch facebook to

1626
00:59:35,030 --> 00:59:33,680
read it's like

1627
00:59:37,190 --> 00:59:35,040
it's like spit back second book on

1628
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:37,200
manifolds it's a short read

1629
00:59:44,069 --> 00:59:43,030
something i've been trying to develop is

1630
00:59:46,710 --> 00:59:44,079
is there a way

1631
00:59:48,870 --> 00:59:46,720
of formulating the laws of physics from

1632
00:59:50,150 --> 00:59:48,880
pure thought experiments

1633
00:59:51,589 --> 00:59:50,160
what drove me to think that was the

1634
00:59:53,430 --> 00:59:51,599
galileo experiment the thought

1635
00:59:55,190 --> 00:59:53,440
experiment with galileo

1636
00:59:56,950 --> 00:59:55,200
and you had already thought about this

1637
00:59:58,230 --> 00:59:56,960
as well and in fact you just started

1638
01:00:00,150 --> 00:59:58,240
writing a book about it's not like you

1639
01:00:03,589 --> 01:00:00,160
you solved the problem otherwise

1640
01:00:03,990 --> 01:00:03,599
we we'd invent plenty of new technology

1641
01:00:06,230 --> 01:00:04,000
but

1642
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:06,240
you've made what i think is progress so

1643
01:00:13,990 --> 01:00:11,430
do you think that ultimately the laws of

1644
01:00:15,589 --> 01:00:14,000
physics can be generated from

1645
01:00:18,069 --> 01:00:15,599
armchair philosophy just sitting back

1646
01:00:20,870 --> 01:00:18,079
and thinking a thought experiment

1647
01:00:21,750 --> 01:00:20,880
uh certainly not all uh in fact not even

1648
01:00:24,470 --> 01:00:21,760
most

1649
01:00:25,589 --> 01:00:24,480
but just every now and then i think we

1650
01:00:27,349 --> 01:00:25,599
we can

1651
01:00:29,349 --> 01:00:27,359
learn something about the world in a

1652
01:00:33,349 --> 01:00:29,359
non-empirical way

1653
01:00:36,470 --> 01:00:33,359
and my favorite example

1654
01:00:39,349 --> 01:00:36,480
is galileo and falling objects

1655
01:00:40,789 --> 01:00:39,359
galileos galileo is a wonderful thought

1656
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:40,799
experimenter

1657
01:00:46,069 --> 01:00:44,240
maybe the best ever uh he's absolutely

1658
01:00:47,750 --> 01:00:46,079
terrific uh einstein was a very good

1659
01:00:50,390 --> 01:00:47,760
thought experimenter too

1660
01:00:53,270 --> 01:00:50,400
um they're probably in the same league

1661
01:00:56,390 --> 01:00:53,280
but if anything i think galileo is

1662
01:00:58,870 --> 01:00:56,400
a notch above um

1663
01:01:00,390 --> 01:00:58,880
the my favorite thought experiment of

1664
01:01:02,150 --> 01:01:00,400
all time

1665
01:01:03,670 --> 01:01:02,160
and i remember hearing it when i was an

1666
01:01:06,309 --> 01:01:03,680
undergraduate and thought it was the

1667
01:01:10,150 --> 01:01:06,319
most dazzling thing i'd ever heard

1668
01:01:12,470 --> 01:01:10,160
and this is the uh argument for

1669
01:01:13,589 --> 01:01:12,480
all objects regardless of how heavy they

1670
01:01:15,829 --> 01:01:13,599
are fall

1671
01:01:17,589 --> 01:01:15,839
at the same rate so it's a thought

1672
01:01:19,589 --> 01:01:17,599
experiment

1673
01:01:22,069 --> 01:01:19,599
you imagine yourself going up on the

1674
01:01:24,309 --> 01:01:22,079
leaning tower of pisa if you like

1675
01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:24,319
and you're dropping a cannonball which

1676
01:01:27,990 --> 01:01:25,520
is quite heavy

1677
01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:28,000
and a musket ball which is relatively

1678
01:01:32,630 --> 01:01:29,440
quite a bit lighter

1679
01:01:33,030 --> 01:01:32,640
now the the common sense view and the

1680
01:01:36,470 --> 01:01:33,040
view

1681
01:01:37,990 --> 01:01:36,480
in uh in aristotle are the same it says

1682
01:01:40,390 --> 01:01:38,000
that heavy objects will just

1683
01:01:42,309 --> 01:01:40,400
fall faster than light objects and we've

1684
01:01:43,109 --> 01:01:42,319
got a lot of experience to that effect

1685
01:01:45,910 --> 01:01:43,119
you know

1686
01:01:46,870 --> 01:01:45,920
i mean if you do throw a cannonball and

1687
01:01:49,270 --> 01:01:46,880
a feather

1688
01:01:51,349 --> 01:01:49,280
you know you know that the cannonball is

1689
01:01:54,870 --> 01:01:51,359
going to hit the ground a lot sooner

1690
01:01:57,349 --> 01:01:54,880
um so galileo says all right

1691
01:01:58,470 --> 01:01:57,359
if uh heavy objects fall faster than

1692
01:02:00,950 --> 01:01:58,480
light objects

1693
01:02:02,710 --> 01:02:00,960
let's imagine a compound object

1694
01:02:06,950 --> 01:02:02,720
consisting of a cannonball

1695
01:02:10,390 --> 01:02:06,960
and a musket ball glued together okay

1696
01:02:12,710 --> 01:02:10,400
um and drop it now we've got three

1697
01:02:16,390 --> 01:02:12,720
things we've got a a cannonball

1698
01:02:18,549 --> 01:02:16,400
a musket ball and this composite objects

1699
01:02:19,589 --> 01:02:18,559
now on the principle the heavy objects

1700
01:02:21,349 --> 01:02:19,599
fall faster

1701
01:02:23,670 --> 01:02:21,359
this composite object is going to fall

1702
01:02:26,150 --> 01:02:23,680
fastest of all of the three

1703
01:02:28,150 --> 01:02:26,160
but unfortunately it's not it's going to

1704
01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:28,160
be slowed down by the fact that

1705
01:02:31,910 --> 01:02:30,240
the cannonball part of the composite

1706
01:02:33,990 --> 01:02:31,920
algae wants to fall

1707
01:02:36,150 --> 01:02:34,000
at its fast rate but it's going to be

1708
01:02:37,029 --> 01:02:36,160
held back by this little musket ball

1709
01:02:39,270 --> 01:02:37,039
attached to it

1710
01:02:41,430 --> 01:02:39,280
who's wanting to fall at a slower rate

1711
01:02:43,349 --> 01:02:41,440
so it's like jumping out of a window

1712
01:02:45,270 --> 01:02:43,359
with a little tiny parachute it's going

1713
01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:45,280
to slow you down

1714
01:02:50,069 --> 01:02:48,480
um and so that's absurd the composite

1715
01:02:53,029 --> 01:02:50,079
object will be both faster

1716
01:02:54,950 --> 01:02:53,039
and slower than the heavy canon ball by

1717
01:02:56,710 --> 01:02:54,960
itself

1718
01:02:57,990 --> 01:02:56,720
there it's and that was the end of

1719
01:02:59,589 --> 01:02:58,000
common sense

1720
01:03:01,109 --> 01:02:59,599
about falling objects and the end of

1721
01:03:04,710 --> 01:03:01,119
aristotle

1722
01:03:07,750 --> 01:03:04,720
on freefall and but the solution

1723
01:03:09,589 --> 01:03:07,760
how fast do things fall is obvious

1724
01:03:11,670 --> 01:03:09,599
when you've reached this point and

1725
01:03:13,510 --> 01:03:11,680
here's the here's where the

1726
01:03:15,750 --> 01:03:13,520
where a physical intuition actually

1727
01:03:16,789 --> 01:03:15,760
comes in and you don't need to perform

1728
01:03:19,029 --> 01:03:16,799
the experiment

1729
01:03:20,789 --> 01:03:19,039
you just think about it and you realize

1730
01:03:24,150 --> 01:03:20,799
oh they all have to fall

1731
01:03:27,029 --> 01:03:24,160
at the same rate and that'll

1732
01:03:29,349 --> 01:03:27,039
and that's how things fall right at the

1733
01:03:29,670 --> 01:03:29,359
same rate regardless of how heavy they

1734
01:03:31,109 --> 01:03:29,680
are

1735
01:03:32,710 --> 01:03:31,119
to me this is still one of the most

1736
01:03:34,309 --> 01:03:32,720
beautiful thought experiments as well

1737
01:03:35,990 --> 01:03:34,319
and it it's what led me on the journey

1738
01:03:37,270 --> 01:03:36,000
of thinking i wonder how much more of

1739
01:03:39,349 --> 01:03:37,280
physics can be gleaned

1740
01:03:41,510 --> 01:03:39,359
by just thinking about what's consistent

1741
01:03:45,510 --> 01:03:41,520
what contradicts

1742
01:03:48,230 --> 01:03:45,520
oh a ton of things um galileo's other

1743
01:03:49,829 --> 01:03:48,240
i think his other very very famous

1744
01:03:52,870 --> 01:03:49,839
thought experiment is the uh

1745
01:03:55,829 --> 01:03:52,880
inside the ship um where

1746
01:03:56,870 --> 01:03:55,839
he can't tell by hypothesis he can't

1747
01:04:01,029 --> 01:03:56,880
tell whether the ship

1748
01:04:04,069 --> 01:04:01,039
is stationary in the port or moving

1749
01:04:05,510 --> 01:04:04,079
across a very smooth ocean and he says

1750
01:04:08,789 --> 01:04:05,520
okay i'm inside

1751
01:04:11,190 --> 01:04:08,799
and birds are flying around inside

1752
01:04:12,150 --> 01:04:11,200
front to back and it's the same whether

1753
01:04:15,589 --> 01:04:12,160
i'm sailing or

1754
01:04:17,670 --> 01:04:15,599
at port i throw up a ball to my friend

1755
01:04:19,910 --> 01:04:17,680
back and forth same whether we're moving

1756
01:04:22,630 --> 01:04:19,920
or import fish are in a

1757
01:04:22,950 --> 01:04:22,640
in an aquarium tank inside the ship and

1758
01:04:25,029 --> 01:04:22,960
there

1759
01:04:25,990 --> 01:04:25,039
they swim back and forth in the tank and

1760
01:04:27,589 --> 01:04:26,000
it doesn't matter whether

1761
01:04:30,309 --> 01:04:27,599
we're stationary and moving everything

1762
01:04:33,430 --> 01:04:30,319
is the same on the inside

1763
01:04:35,029 --> 01:04:33,440
and that's his argument for um

1764
01:04:36,630 --> 01:04:35,039
what has become the principle of

1765
01:04:39,349 --> 01:04:36,640
relativity that

1766
01:04:40,870 --> 01:04:39,359
inertial frames the laws of nature are

1767
01:04:43,029 --> 01:04:40,880
exactly the same

1768
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:43,039
in any inertial frame whether it's a

1769
01:04:47,270 --> 01:04:44,480
stationary one

1770
01:04:47,589 --> 01:04:47,280
at rest in port or moving smoothly over

1771
01:04:51,270 --> 01:04:47,599
the

1772
01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:51,280
impetus for him

1773
01:04:54,390 --> 01:04:52,720
thinking of this thought experiment was

1774
01:04:55,029 --> 01:04:54,400
it because he was suggesting the earth

1775
01:04:56,630 --> 01:04:55,039
is moving

1776
01:04:58,069 --> 01:04:56,640
and people were wondering well shouldn't

1777
01:04:59,270 --> 01:04:58,079
we be moving if the earth is moving or

1778
01:05:00,870 --> 01:04:59,280
was it something else

1779
01:05:02,390 --> 01:05:00,880
that's exactly right there was another

1780
01:05:04,870 --> 01:05:02,400
thought experiment prior

1781
01:05:06,309 --> 01:05:04,880
not galileo's but prior to galileo this

1782
01:05:08,789 --> 01:05:06,319
is a medieval thought experiment

1783
01:05:12,150 --> 01:05:08,799
sometimes called the tower

1784
01:05:13,990 --> 01:05:12,160
experiment and and that is if the earth

1785
01:05:17,750 --> 01:05:14,000
is moving either around the sun or

1786
01:05:20,390 --> 01:05:17,760
spinning on its own axis either way um

1787
01:05:21,510 --> 01:05:20,400
and you dropped an object from a from a

1788
01:05:24,390 --> 01:05:21,520
tower

1789
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:24,400
then as the earth moved the object would

1790
01:05:29,029 --> 01:05:27,280
fall way behind the base of the tower

1791
01:05:31,109 --> 01:05:29,039
right never does that it always falls

1792
01:05:32,630 --> 01:05:31,119
right down at the base

1793
01:05:34,069 --> 01:05:32,640
right and you can use a similar ship

1794
01:05:36,630 --> 01:05:34,079
argument where if you're on a ship and

1795
01:05:38,390 --> 01:05:36,640
the ship is sailing and you drop a ball

1796
01:05:39,670 --> 01:05:38,400
it'll fall behind the ship or where the

1797
01:05:40,309 --> 01:05:39,680
tail end of the ship was that's right

1798
01:05:42,789 --> 01:05:40,319
the tower

1799
01:05:43,750 --> 01:05:42,799
that's what the the the equivalent tower

1800
01:05:45,510 --> 01:05:43,760
argument would use

1801
01:05:47,430 --> 01:05:45,520
but galileo says no no it's not going to

1802
01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:47,440
be like that at all if you're

1803
01:05:51,109 --> 01:05:50,160
uh if you're just inside the ship you

1804
01:05:54,069 --> 01:05:51,119
can't see out

1805
01:05:56,309 --> 01:05:54,079
you drop a ball it'll land at your feet

1806
01:05:58,950 --> 01:05:56,319
uh and if you're moving over the sea at

1807
01:06:00,789 --> 01:05:58,960
20 knots uh and you drop a ball it's

1808
01:06:04,069 --> 01:06:00,799
still going to land at your feet

1809
01:06:05,990 --> 01:06:04,079
either way right right and and

1810
01:06:07,430 --> 01:06:06,000
and that's that and then more general of

1811
01:06:08,870 --> 01:06:07,440
course you just make the claim

1812
01:06:10,710 --> 01:06:08,880
the laws of nature are going to be the

1813
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:10,720
same in any inertial

1814
01:06:15,190 --> 01:06:13,200
frame of reference and that's the

1815
01:06:15,829 --> 01:06:15,200
principle of relativity that's galileo's

1816
01:06:21,829 --> 01:06:15,839
version

1817
01:06:23,109 --> 01:06:21,839
when einstein gave us a special

1818
01:06:24,789 --> 01:06:23,119
relativity

1819
01:06:27,109 --> 01:06:24,799
he hung on to the principle of

1820
01:06:30,710 --> 01:06:27,119
relativity because it was in danger

1821
01:06:32,630 --> 01:06:30,720
it was in danger from

1822
01:06:35,270 --> 01:06:32,640
maxwell's electrodynamics which seemed

1823
01:06:36,870 --> 01:06:35,280
to need a universal ether as if there

1824
01:06:40,150 --> 01:06:36,880
was a single frame

1825
01:06:44,150 --> 01:06:40,160
in which physics was correctly described

1826
01:06:46,069 --> 01:06:44,160
and um and and moving a moving anything

1827
01:06:49,990 --> 01:06:46,079
that was moving in the ether frame

1828
01:06:53,029 --> 01:06:50,000
you wouldn't get the right um

1829
01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:53,039
results that is that you'd have to take

1830
01:06:57,990 --> 01:06:54,480
that into account

1831
01:07:00,630 --> 01:06:58,000
the laws of nature now let's get to

1832
01:07:01,270 --> 01:07:00,640
with the absolute space and the bucket

1833
01:07:02,230 --> 01:07:01,280
so newton

1834
01:07:04,470 --> 01:07:02,240
had a thought experiment that

1835
01:07:06,950 --> 01:07:04,480
demonstrated absolute space

1836
01:07:08,870 --> 01:07:06,960
okay so this is a another extremely

1837
01:07:12,549 --> 01:07:08,880
famous thought experiment

1838
01:07:14,390 --> 01:07:12,559
and for this i can show a diagram

1839
01:07:15,829 --> 01:07:14,400
from the book or from any other place i

1840
01:07:16,950 --> 01:07:15,839
don't want to take from the copyright

1841
01:07:19,750 --> 01:07:16,960
holder

1842
01:07:21,510 --> 01:07:19,760
no no have you got it there no i mean

1843
01:07:23,109 --> 01:07:21,520
i'll show it when where when i'm editing

1844
01:07:25,829 --> 01:07:23,119
oh yeah yeah yeah you can show

1845
01:07:27,349 --> 01:07:25,839
it from my book don't worry sure yeah i

1846
01:07:30,710 --> 01:07:27,359
you i grant you permission

1847
01:07:34,069 --> 01:07:33,670
now um so newton gave two versions of

1848
01:07:37,430 --> 01:07:34,079
this

1849
01:07:39,190 --> 01:07:37,440
one was the bucket okay and and so

1850
01:07:40,870 --> 01:07:39,200
uh the way the way you should think of

1851
01:07:44,710 --> 01:07:40,880
it is you've got a bucket

1852
01:07:48,309 --> 01:07:44,720
um and you can you can twist the rope

1853
01:07:51,349 --> 01:07:48,319
okay and the and here's the bucket and

1854
01:07:53,190 --> 01:07:51,359
the water is very smooth on top

1855
01:07:55,510 --> 01:07:53,200
and you let the bucket go because it's

1856
01:07:57,270 --> 01:07:55,520
the only thing in the universe for this

1857
01:07:58,549 --> 01:07:57,280
for the well for the bucket there's all

1858
01:07:59,190 --> 01:07:58,559
there's there's newton and there's

1859
01:08:01,109 --> 01:07:59,200
everything

1860
01:08:02,549 --> 01:08:01,119
around okay never mind let me do the

1861
01:08:03,910 --> 01:08:02,559
bucket and then i'll switch to the other

1862
01:08:07,510 --> 01:08:03,920
one

1863
01:08:09,750 --> 01:08:07,520
which is the empty universe okay so um

1864
01:08:13,029 --> 01:08:09,760
at first the water is flat and the

1865
01:08:17,269 --> 01:08:13,039
bucket starts to rotate

1866
01:08:19,349 --> 01:08:17,279
and gradually so so and so initially

1867
01:08:21,189 --> 01:08:19,359
before anything happens the water and

1868
01:08:24,470 --> 01:08:21,199
the bucket are at rest with

1869
01:08:27,110 --> 01:08:24,480
respect to one another

1870
01:08:28,309 --> 01:08:27,120
then they start to rotate and they're

1871
01:08:30,229 --> 01:08:28,319
rotating together

1872
01:08:33,269 --> 01:08:30,239
both the bucket and the water and the

1873
01:08:35,349 --> 01:08:33,279
water starts climbing the walls

1874
01:08:36,870 --> 01:08:35,359
and then you stop the bucket and the

1875
01:08:39,590 --> 01:08:36,880
water's still climbing

1876
01:08:40,550 --> 01:08:39,600
and then it gradually subsides the flat

1877
01:08:44,470 --> 01:08:40,560
again

1878
01:08:47,510 --> 01:08:44,480
now the question is how do we how do we

1879
01:08:49,510 --> 01:08:47,520
explain the difference between

1880
01:08:51,990 --> 01:08:49,520
the water and bucket being at rest

1881
01:08:54,870 --> 01:08:52,000
initially and the water's flat

1882
01:08:56,709 --> 01:08:54,880
and later on the water and bucket are at

1883
01:08:59,910 --> 01:08:56,719
rest with respect to one another

1884
01:09:02,229 --> 01:08:59,920
but but the water is concave okay the

1885
01:09:04,229 --> 01:09:02,239
water is climbing up the walls

1886
01:09:06,550 --> 01:09:04,239
how do you explain the difference and

1887
01:09:08,390 --> 01:09:06,560
newton says okay um

1888
01:09:09,910 --> 01:09:08,400
you know what's going to happen here's

1889
01:09:11,829 --> 01:09:09,920
the explanation

1890
01:09:13,749 --> 01:09:11,839
in the first case the water bucket

1891
01:09:17,749 --> 01:09:13,759
system is not

1892
01:09:19,990 --> 01:09:17,759
rotating with respect to space

1893
01:09:21,110 --> 01:09:20,000
and later when the wall water's climbing

1894
01:09:23,430 --> 01:09:21,120
the walls

1895
01:09:26,070 --> 01:09:23,440
the whole system is rotating with

1896
01:09:28,550 --> 01:09:26,080
respect to space itself

1897
01:09:30,630 --> 01:09:28,560
and then conclusion therefore space

1898
01:09:34,229 --> 01:09:30,640
exists

1899
01:09:37,030 --> 01:09:34,239
it's not just you know something that uh

1900
01:09:38,309 --> 01:09:37,040
you know we're we use as a convenience

1901
01:09:41,269 --> 01:09:38,319
or something like that

1902
01:09:42,470 --> 01:09:41,279
actually let me go back and make sure

1903
01:09:44,709 --> 01:09:42,480
and and people can

1904
01:09:45,990 --> 01:09:44,719
figure out what their instinctive view

1905
01:09:49,910 --> 01:09:46,000
is

1906
01:09:52,390 --> 01:09:49,920
a newtonian on the one hand

1907
01:09:53,349 --> 01:09:52,400
and a leibnizian relationalist on the

1908
01:09:56,630 --> 01:09:53,359
other hand

1909
01:09:59,030 --> 01:09:56,640
okay question

1910
01:09:59,910 --> 01:09:59,040
if there was nothing in the whole

1911
01:10:02,470 --> 01:09:59,920
universe no

1912
01:10:03,270 --> 01:10:02,480
object existed anywhere in the universe

1913
01:10:06,709 --> 01:10:03,280
would space

1914
01:10:08,950 --> 01:10:06,719
still exist could space still exist

1915
01:10:09,750 --> 01:10:08,960
and i find that when i ask my students

1916
01:10:12,870 --> 01:10:09,760
that question

1917
01:10:15,350 --> 01:10:12,880
about half of them say yeah empty space

1918
01:10:16,310 --> 01:10:15,360
no problem this could be empty space and

1919
01:10:18,470 --> 01:10:16,320
the other half said

1920
01:10:20,149 --> 01:10:18,480
that's ridiculous there couldn't be such

1921
01:10:21,910 --> 01:10:20,159
a thing as empty space

1922
01:10:23,669 --> 01:10:21,920
if there's no objects there's just no

1923
01:10:25,669 --> 01:10:23,679
space period

1924
01:10:27,910 --> 01:10:25,679
this sounds like the tree falling in the

1925
01:10:29,750 --> 01:10:27,920
woods

1926
01:10:31,350 --> 01:10:29,760
the space-time version connection to

1927
01:10:33,189 --> 01:10:31,360
that you're right

1928
01:10:34,790 --> 01:10:33,199
and there's some there's a counterpart

1929
01:10:38,070 --> 01:10:34,800
to that for time

1930
01:10:39,830 --> 01:10:38,080
if i say to my class okay imagine

1931
01:10:43,110 --> 01:10:39,840
that nothing ever happened everything

1932
01:10:46,470 --> 01:10:43,120
was just frozen solid

1933
01:10:47,990 --> 01:10:46,480
could time still pass after class will

1934
01:10:50,790 --> 01:10:48,000
say no

1935
01:10:51,110 --> 01:10:50,800
no events no time the other half will

1936
01:10:54,070 --> 01:10:51,120
say

1937
01:10:55,669 --> 01:10:54,080
yeah time's still passing but nothing's

1938
01:10:57,750 --> 01:10:55,679
happening

1939
01:10:59,430 --> 01:10:57,760
very different instincts people have

1940
01:11:00,470 --> 01:10:59,440
about this and that one's also about 50

1941
01:11:05,590 --> 01:11:00,480
50.

1942
01:11:07,430 --> 01:11:05,600
oh yeah yeah yeah yeah they're highly

1943
01:11:10,229 --> 01:11:07,440
correlated okay

1944
01:11:11,030 --> 01:11:10,239
yeah so if you think empty space makes

1945
01:11:12,870 --> 01:11:11,040
sense

1946
01:11:14,950 --> 01:11:12,880
and you think time without events makes

1947
01:11:17,590 --> 01:11:14,960
sense you're a newtonian

1948
01:11:18,870 --> 01:11:17,600
you're with newton and if you think that

1949
01:11:22,470 --> 01:11:18,880
um

1950
01:11:24,830 --> 01:11:22,480
no objects no space or no events no time

1951
01:11:26,070 --> 01:11:24,840
you're an instinctive leibnizian a

1952
01:11:29,510 --> 01:11:26,080
relationalist

1953
01:11:31,590 --> 01:11:29,520
and what about you uh my instincts are

1954
01:11:33,030 --> 01:11:31,600
mostly with newton

1955
01:11:34,630 --> 01:11:33,040
it's also another thing that's

1956
01:11:37,270 --> 01:11:34,640
interesting about this is that

1957
01:11:40,229 --> 01:11:37,280
um my class will be typically half

1958
01:11:43,030 --> 01:11:40,239
physics staff philosophy students

1959
01:11:43,990 --> 01:11:43,040
it doesn't break along that line at all

1960
01:11:46,229 --> 01:11:44,000
oh interesting

1961
01:11:47,750 --> 01:11:46,239
half the physicists are newtonians in

1962
01:11:48,630 --> 01:11:47,760
instinct and half of them are live

1963
01:11:50,149 --> 01:11:48,640
nations

1964
01:11:51,990 --> 01:11:50,159
and the philosophy students exactly the

1965
01:11:53,350 --> 01:11:52,000
same half of them are newtonians half of

1966
01:11:55,030 --> 01:11:53,360
them are labnets again

1967
01:11:56,709 --> 01:11:55,040
have you done this with mathematicians

1968
01:11:59,110 --> 01:11:56,719
i'm curious

1969
01:12:00,390 --> 01:11:59,120
what they're have happened

1970
01:12:03,110 --> 01:12:00,400
mathematicians i do it with

1971
01:12:06,310 --> 01:12:03,120
mathematicians for other things

1972
01:12:07,189 --> 01:12:06,320
and often that are philosophically

1973
01:12:10,470 --> 01:12:07,199
interesting

1974
01:12:12,630 --> 01:12:10,480
and i am often surprised at

1975
01:12:14,550 --> 01:12:12,640
the split in the mathematical audience

1976
01:12:15,750 --> 01:12:14,560
exactly corresponds to the split in the

1977
01:12:17,350 --> 01:12:15,760
philosophy audience

1978
01:12:18,870 --> 01:12:17,360
that is you can't tell from someone's

1979
01:12:20,709 --> 01:12:18,880
answer whether they're a mathematician

1980
01:12:22,310 --> 01:12:20,719
or a philosopher

1981
01:12:23,990 --> 01:12:22,320
by the way do you consider are you a

1982
01:12:25,669 --> 01:12:24,000
professor of philosophy of math or

1983
01:12:28,630 --> 01:12:25,679
philosophy of physics or both

1984
01:12:29,270 --> 01:12:28,640
no just philosophy but my specialty

1985
01:12:31,669 --> 01:12:29,280
inside

1986
01:12:32,790 --> 01:12:31,679
is things like math and physics i see

1987
01:12:34,870 --> 01:12:32,800
some i mean some

1988
01:12:36,470 --> 01:12:34,880
philosophers are you know they

1989
01:12:37,030 --> 01:12:36,480
specialize in the history of philosophy

1990
01:12:40,709 --> 01:12:37,040
or in

1991
01:12:43,830 --> 01:12:40,719
ethics and so on uh math and physics are

1992
01:12:45,750 --> 01:12:43,840
my specialties inside as an aside

1993
01:12:47,350 --> 01:12:45,760
another aside why did you end up

1994
01:12:49,270 --> 01:12:47,360
choosing to go into the philosophy of

1995
01:12:50,870 --> 01:12:49,280
math instead of math is it just purely

1996
01:12:54,310 --> 01:12:50,880
based on what interested you

1997
01:12:57,669 --> 01:12:57,110
that's a really interesting question i

1998
01:13:00,950 --> 01:12:57,679
think

1999
01:13:01,669 --> 01:13:00,960
it was pretty much that right at the

2000
01:13:05,030 --> 01:13:01,679
beginning

2001
01:13:06,390 --> 01:13:05,040
and you so then you have to pick majors

2002
01:13:09,510 --> 01:13:06,400
and stuff like that

2003
01:13:13,030 --> 01:13:09,520
i thought i can do

2004
01:13:15,030 --> 01:13:13,040
anything in the world as a philosopher

2005
01:13:18,470 --> 01:13:15,040
and no one will say yeah you're not

2006
01:13:20,310 --> 01:13:18,480
doing philosophy anymore

2007
01:13:22,310 --> 01:13:20,320
one of my first questions for this that

2008
01:13:23,750 --> 01:13:22,320
i wrote down it's has any philosophical

2009
01:13:26,229 --> 01:13:23,760
question ever been solved

2010
01:13:27,110 --> 01:13:26,239
and this relates to that because i'm

2011
01:13:28,390 --> 01:13:27,120
curious to know

2012
01:13:30,310 --> 01:13:28,400
it's something i've been thinking about

2013
01:13:31,669 --> 01:13:30,320
i didn't search this on google and it's

2014
01:13:33,590 --> 01:13:31,679
not clear the only one that i can think

2015
01:13:35,430 --> 01:13:33,600
of is maybe zeno's paradox with saying

2016
01:13:35,910 --> 01:13:35,440
well you're only accounting for finite

2017
01:13:39,030 --> 01:13:35,920
time

2018
01:13:43,669 --> 01:13:39,040
but have any major philosophical

2019
01:13:49,350 --> 01:13:47,510
um i'd be more confident in saying

2020
01:13:50,950 --> 01:13:49,360
a lot of views have been decisively

2021
01:13:53,030 --> 01:13:50,960
refuted

2022
01:13:54,470 --> 01:13:53,040
so there's a lot of people in philosophy

2023
01:13:56,790 --> 01:13:54,480
saying well

2024
01:13:59,030 --> 01:13:56,800
we don't know that we're we know we know

2025
01:14:01,990 --> 01:13:59,040
that we're making progress

2026
01:14:03,669 --> 01:14:02,000
in this limited sense that we now know

2027
01:14:06,470 --> 01:14:03,679
certain things are false that we didn't

2028
01:14:08,229 --> 01:14:06,480
know were false

2029
01:14:09,990 --> 01:14:08,239
you know 50 years ago or something like

2030
01:14:13,590 --> 01:14:10,000
that but i mean there are lots

2031
01:14:16,709 --> 01:14:13,600
i have lots of philosophical views uh

2032
01:14:19,590 --> 01:14:16,719
about which i'm fairly confident

2033
01:14:21,430 --> 01:14:19,600
and i think those might count people

2034
01:14:24,870 --> 01:14:21,440
would disagree with me of course

2035
01:14:27,830 --> 01:14:24,880
right but there'd be a there'd be a

2036
01:14:28,870 --> 01:14:27,840
some significant number of people who

2037
01:14:32,950 --> 01:14:28,880
say yeah

2038
01:14:34,709 --> 01:14:32,960
we think that's right in defensive

2039
01:14:36,149 --> 01:14:34,719
yeah i mean to take one of the one of

2040
01:14:39,270 --> 01:14:36,159
the most important

2041
01:14:42,470 --> 01:14:39,280
and oldest is plato's um

2042
01:14:44,630 --> 01:14:42,480
plato's refutation uh

2043
01:14:46,550 --> 01:14:44,640
for the need for god in order to have

2044
01:14:48,470 --> 01:14:46,560
objective ethics

2045
01:14:50,149 --> 01:14:48,480
it's in the dialogue called the

2046
01:14:52,790 --> 01:14:50,159
euthyphro

2047
01:14:54,630 --> 01:14:52,800
and it's a very simple little argument

2048
01:14:56,149 --> 01:14:54,640
and it doesn't it doesn't refute the

2049
01:14:59,270 --> 01:14:56,159
existence of god it just

2050
01:15:01,990 --> 01:14:59,280
says no no no objective ethics

2051
01:15:03,110 --> 01:15:02,000
objective right and wrong is completely

2052
01:15:05,189 --> 01:15:03,120
independent from god

2053
01:15:07,350 --> 01:15:05,199
god's got nothing to do with it it's a

2054
01:15:10,070 --> 01:15:07,360
wonderful little argument

2055
01:15:11,510 --> 01:15:10,080
and um if you are an atheist you're

2056
01:15:13,189 --> 01:15:11,520
happy with the conclusion

2057
01:15:15,030 --> 01:15:13,199
right we can have objective ethics we

2058
01:15:16,390 --> 01:15:15,040
don't need god

2059
01:15:19,189 --> 01:15:16,400
and if you do believe in god you could

2060
01:15:21,189 --> 01:15:19,199
say well i still believe in god and i

2061
01:15:22,550 --> 01:15:21,199
believe in objective ethics the intimate

2062
01:15:24,229 --> 01:15:22,560
connection that i thought was there

2063
01:15:27,590 --> 01:15:24,239
actually isn't there but

2064
01:15:29,669 --> 01:15:27,600
everything else is wonderful

2065
01:15:31,910 --> 01:15:29,679
or someone can reject the conclusion and

2066
01:15:33,270 --> 01:15:31,920
say yes god can advocate for

2067
01:15:35,270 --> 01:15:33,280
the murder of a child and that would

2068
01:15:35,830 --> 01:15:35,280
still be good because god advocated for

2069
01:15:37,750 --> 01:15:35,840
it

2070
01:15:39,350 --> 01:15:37,760
that's the essence of the euthyphro

2071
01:15:40,550 --> 01:15:39,360
argument because everyone will bark at

2072
01:15:42,790 --> 01:15:40,560
that

2073
01:15:44,709 --> 01:15:42,800
and they'll they think they they think

2074
01:15:45,350 --> 01:15:44,719
well something is moral because god says

2075
01:15:49,110 --> 01:15:45,360
so

2076
01:15:50,790 --> 01:15:49,120
you you had uh you had to rape every

2077
01:15:52,229 --> 01:15:50,800
woman you can see

2078
01:15:54,149 --> 01:15:52,239
then that would be a good thing to do is

2079
01:15:55,510 --> 01:15:54,159
that what you believe and no one will

2080
01:15:57,189 --> 01:15:55,520
believe that

2081
01:15:59,350 --> 01:15:57,199
and then they realize that this is

2082
01:16:01,430 --> 01:15:59,360
stupid i can't what i've been saying all

2083
01:16:03,990 --> 01:16:01,440
along is a really stupid view

2084
01:16:06,070 --> 01:16:04,000
the most we can get out of god is god is

2085
01:16:08,950 --> 01:16:06,080
a truthful reporter

2086
01:16:10,229 --> 01:16:08,960
of objective moral rules like we can

2087
01:16:11,990 --> 01:16:10,239
trust god to tell us

2088
01:16:14,310 --> 01:16:12,000
what the moral rules are but god isn't

2089
01:16:15,590 --> 01:16:14,320
making them they have to be independent

2090
01:16:17,350 --> 01:16:15,600
that's a really it's a it's a

2091
01:16:19,910 --> 01:16:17,360
wonderfully interesting problem

2092
01:16:20,790 --> 01:16:19,920
that's underappreciated i think

2093
01:16:24,310 --> 01:16:20,800
theologians

2094
01:16:26,390 --> 01:16:24,320
and there's another one

2095
01:16:28,310 --> 01:16:26,400
that they even more don't want to touch

2096
01:16:32,149 --> 01:16:28,320
and that is um

2097
01:16:37,430 --> 01:16:35,030
the one about ethics is a lot like what

2098
01:16:39,510 --> 01:16:37,440
leibniz thought about god's power

2099
01:16:41,030 --> 01:16:39,520
if you'd say liveness do you think god

2100
01:16:44,310 --> 01:16:41,040
is all-powerful you say you betcha

2101
01:16:47,430 --> 01:16:45,750
whiteness wouldn't say that though

2102
01:16:48,470 --> 01:16:47,440
because life is a qualification which

2103
01:16:50,630 --> 01:16:48,480
i'm going to give you in a second

2104
01:16:52,229 --> 01:16:50,640
okay okay you say descartes can god do

2105
01:16:53,110 --> 01:16:52,239
everything say you betcha he can do

2106
01:16:55,910 --> 01:16:53,120
anything

2107
01:16:56,470 --> 01:16:55,920
and then you say well can he make it

2108
01:16:58,709 --> 01:16:56,480
rain

2109
01:17:00,310 --> 01:16:58,719
it's a sunny day right here can you make

2110
01:17:01,750 --> 01:17:00,320
it rain sure you can make it rain

2111
01:17:03,030 --> 01:17:01,760
liveness could he make it rain you

2112
01:17:04,070 --> 01:17:03,040
better you can make a rain just like

2113
01:17:07,110 --> 01:17:04,080
that

2114
01:17:08,630 --> 01:17:07,120
um and then you say to descartes could

2115
01:17:11,750 --> 01:17:08,640
he make it rain

2116
01:17:13,430 --> 01:17:11,760
and not rain simultaneously

2117
01:17:15,189 --> 01:17:13,440
descartes would say yes he can even do

2118
01:17:15,669 --> 01:17:15,199
that i can't imagine what it would be

2119
01:17:17,830 --> 01:17:15,679
like

2120
01:17:19,669 --> 01:17:17,840
but he can do it and leibniz would say

2121
01:17:21,910 --> 01:17:19,679
no he can't do that

2122
01:17:23,590 --> 01:17:21,920
he can make it rain he can make it not

2123
01:17:24,870 --> 01:17:23,600
rain but he can't pull off a

2124
01:17:28,070 --> 01:17:24,880
contradiction

2125
01:17:29,750 --> 01:17:28,080
so god god can do anything that's

2126
01:17:33,030 --> 01:17:29,760
possible

2127
01:17:35,030 --> 01:17:33,040
that's god's power right and and that

2128
01:17:36,870 --> 01:17:35,040
and the light in its view about what god

2129
01:17:39,110 --> 01:17:36,880
can do in the physical realm

2130
01:17:41,910 --> 01:17:39,120
is very much like well liveness i think

2131
01:17:44,310 --> 01:17:41,920
with all the same view about ethics

2132
01:17:46,550 --> 01:17:44,320
you know god can advocate almost

2133
01:17:49,590 --> 01:17:46,560
anything but god actually couldn't make

2134
01:17:50,470 --> 01:17:49,600
murder okay god couldn't make torturing

2135
01:17:53,510 --> 01:17:50,480
kittens

2136
01:17:56,070 --> 01:17:53,520
morally okay he doesn't have that kind

2137
01:17:59,430 --> 01:17:57,910
you know when we're talking about

2138
01:18:00,470 --> 01:17:59,440
whether or not philosophical problems

2139
01:18:03,030 --> 01:18:00,480
have been solved

2140
01:18:04,550 --> 01:18:03,040
something i found online which it's

2141
01:18:05,910 --> 01:18:04,560
funny it's a reason why

2142
01:18:07,669 --> 01:18:05,920
philosophical problems have not been

2143
01:18:09,189 --> 01:18:07,679
solved is that as soon as they have been

2144
01:18:10,709 --> 01:18:09,199
solved they get relegated to something

2145
01:18:12,390 --> 01:18:10,719
like physics or math

2146
01:18:13,990 --> 01:18:12,400
for example you know physics was called

2147
01:18:14,229 --> 01:18:14,000
natural philosophy before anyone would

2148
01:18:15,430 --> 01:18:14,239
know

2149
01:18:17,350 --> 01:18:15,440
that's a good that's actually a really

2150
01:18:18,790 --> 01:18:17,360
good point the hardest problems state in

2151
01:18:20,070 --> 01:18:18,800
philosophy the ones that are unsolvable

2152
01:18:20,630 --> 01:18:20,080
stay in philosophy as soon as they're

2153
01:18:22,310 --> 01:18:20,640
solved

2154
01:18:24,149 --> 01:18:22,320
they get outside the realm of philosophy

2155
01:18:26,550 --> 01:18:24,159
and that's why philosophical problems

2156
01:18:29,590 --> 01:18:26,560
seem to have never been solved

2157
01:18:31,990 --> 01:18:29,600
that's a really good point um uh

2158
01:18:33,669 --> 01:18:32,000
in fact that's how a lot of philosophers

2159
01:18:36,229 --> 01:18:33,679
think of their discipline

2160
01:18:38,229 --> 01:18:36,239
as giving birth to the sciences once

2161
01:18:42,390 --> 01:18:38,239
once we sort something out

2162
01:18:43,990 --> 01:18:42,400
um it takes off uh a life of its own

2163
01:18:45,669 --> 01:18:44,000
sometimes when i talk to hardcore

2164
01:18:47,270 --> 01:18:45,679
physicists they don't like to deal with

2165
01:18:49,830 --> 01:18:47,280
concepts that are

2166
01:18:51,189 --> 01:18:49,840
maybe you might call them thick although

2167
01:18:51,830 --> 01:18:51,199
i might be using your terminology

2168
01:18:53,750 --> 01:18:51,840
incorrectly

2169
01:18:54,870 --> 01:18:53,760
i might i'm gonna call them ambiguous

2170
01:18:58,709 --> 01:18:54,880
like for example

2171
01:19:01,590 --> 01:18:58,719
consciousness or free will or

2172
01:19:02,470 --> 01:19:01,600
yeah yeah those are those right and they

2173
01:19:03,189 --> 01:19:02,480
would just say i don't know what it

2174
01:19:04,709 --> 01:19:03,199
means to

2175
01:19:06,229 --> 01:19:04,719
i don't know what that means and so let

2176
01:19:08,630 --> 01:19:06,239
me just stay with my

2177
01:19:10,229 --> 01:19:08,640
rulers and protractors but the

2178
01:19:11,830 --> 01:19:10,239
philosophers are willing to deal with

2179
01:19:13,030 --> 01:19:11,840
what seems meaningless and try and find

2180
01:19:15,030 --> 01:19:13,040
meaning and then

2181
01:19:16,790 --> 01:19:15,040
and concretize what's ambiguous or

2182
01:19:19,510 --> 01:19:16,800
disambiguate what's ambiguous

2183
01:19:19,830 --> 01:19:19,520
and then it goes into another realm yeah

2184
01:19:21,910 --> 01:19:19,840
yeah

2185
01:19:23,189 --> 01:19:21,920
that's right and i don't particularly

2186
01:19:24,950 --> 01:19:23,199
like the the

2187
01:19:26,390 --> 01:19:24,960
this there's a dismissal that an

2188
01:19:29,430 --> 01:19:26,400
arrogance that comes from the purely

2189
01:19:31,510 --> 01:19:29,440
mathematical and purely physical

2190
01:19:32,709 --> 01:19:31,520
professors that i've spoken to where

2191
01:19:35,910 --> 01:19:32,719
they don't want to deal with

2192
01:19:37,270 --> 01:19:35,920
certain concepts that seem that are

2193
01:19:39,030 --> 01:19:37,280
ill-defined

2194
01:19:41,030 --> 01:19:39,040
they'll just say well i don't deal with

2195
01:19:42,470 --> 01:19:41,040
that and that's meaningless and so you

2196
01:19:44,390 --> 01:19:42,480
can pursue that but that's a religious

2197
01:19:45,189 --> 01:19:44,400
pursuit to even talk about consciousness

2198
01:19:49,430 --> 01:19:45,199
or

2199
01:19:52,470 --> 01:19:49,440
does life mean

2200
01:19:53,750 --> 01:19:52,480
well uh yeah that seems rather

2201
01:19:56,870 --> 01:19:53,760
short-sighted because

2202
01:19:58,149 --> 01:19:56,880
uh so many i mean i i can understand

2203
01:20:00,950 --> 01:19:58,159
them

2204
01:20:02,310 --> 01:20:00,960
saying uh i i don't want to deal with

2205
01:20:05,430 --> 01:20:02,320
consciousness

2206
01:20:06,629 --> 01:20:05,440
as a physicist uh i'm very happy to talk

2207
01:20:10,790 --> 01:20:06,639
about it

2208
01:20:14,229 --> 01:20:10,800
it's probably

2209
01:20:16,310 --> 01:20:14,239
outside the realm of physics i'm also

2210
01:20:18,310 --> 01:20:16,320
very interested to talk about politics

2211
01:20:20,310 --> 01:20:18,320
and how we should organize society

2212
01:20:21,990 --> 01:20:20,320
but i wouldn't derive it from the

2213
01:20:25,990 --> 01:20:22,000
schrodinger equation exactly

2214
01:20:29,430 --> 01:20:26,000
right okay now the bucket

2215
01:20:32,550 --> 01:20:29,440
okay so anyway the the bucket um

2216
01:20:36,229 --> 01:20:32,560
the the uh newton's final conclusion

2217
01:20:38,550 --> 01:20:36,239
okay water still initially water concave

2218
01:20:39,830 --> 01:20:38,560
at the end what's the difference

2219
01:20:42,149 --> 01:20:39,840
explanation

2220
01:20:44,830 --> 01:20:42,159
the bucket is not rotating then the

2221
01:20:47,830 --> 01:20:44,840
bucket is rotating with respect to space

2222
01:20:49,030 --> 01:20:47,840
itself and therefore space exists it's

2223
01:20:51,510 --> 01:20:49,040
meant to be

2224
01:20:53,430 --> 01:20:51,520
an argument for the existence of space

2225
01:20:55,430 --> 01:20:53,440
as a thing in its own right

2226
01:20:57,350 --> 01:20:55,440
sp as well as all these material objects

2227
01:21:00,709 --> 01:20:57,360
all around us there is also

2228
01:21:02,709 --> 01:21:00,719
space it's an extra thing

2229
01:21:03,750 --> 01:21:02,719
like that said that's rubbish there's

2230
01:21:07,189 --> 01:21:03,760
nothing to space

2231
01:21:07,830 --> 01:21:07,199
except um the relations among physical

2232
01:21:10,629 --> 01:21:07,840
things

2233
01:21:11,430 --> 01:21:10,639
nothing left over there's nothing so

2234
01:21:13,590 --> 01:21:11,440
likeness

2235
01:21:15,270 --> 01:21:13,600
didn't agree with the conclusion of the

2236
01:21:16,470 --> 01:21:15,280
thought experiment or he just didn't

2237
01:21:19,110 --> 01:21:16,480
get presented with this thought

2238
01:21:19,830 --> 01:21:19,120
experiment no that's that's really a

2239
01:21:22,310 --> 01:21:19,840
good point

2240
01:21:23,350 --> 01:21:22,320
um they had a wonderfully interesting

2241
01:21:25,830 --> 01:21:23,360
correspondence

2242
01:21:26,390 --> 01:21:25,840
back and forth it's called the leibniz

2243
01:21:30,310 --> 01:21:26,400
clark

2244
01:21:33,750 --> 01:21:30,320
close to newton

2245
01:21:38,310 --> 01:21:33,760
we don't really know whether

2246
01:21:41,189 --> 01:21:38,320
clark was simply taking dictation

2247
01:21:42,870 --> 01:21:41,199
from newton he might have been or he

2248
01:21:44,310 --> 01:21:42,880
might have just talked to newton about

2249
01:21:46,149 --> 01:21:44,320
how to formulate answers

2250
01:21:47,430 --> 01:21:46,159
but there's about six letters back and

2251
01:21:49,350 --> 01:21:47,440
forth between them

2252
01:21:51,510 --> 01:21:49,360
and they keep getting longer and longer

2253
01:21:53,669 --> 01:21:51,520
uh leibniz died

2254
01:21:56,149 --> 01:21:53,679
it never it never came to an end it just

2255
01:21:59,590 --> 01:21:56,159
leibniz just unfortunately died

2256
01:22:01,830 --> 01:21:59,600
um and leidness has wonderful answers to

2257
01:22:05,430 --> 01:22:01,840
a whole lot of stuff

2258
01:22:07,350 --> 01:22:05,440
that uh newton talks about

2259
01:22:08,629 --> 01:22:07,360
uh but why vanessa's a brilliant

2260
01:22:09,750 --> 01:22:08,639
brilliant person

2261
01:22:11,669 --> 01:22:09,760
when people are talking about the

2262
01:22:12,149 --> 01:22:11,679
luminaries they mention einstein and

2263
01:22:15,510 --> 01:22:12,159
newton

2264
01:22:16,950 --> 01:22:15,520
but leibniz is to me on the same

2265
01:22:19,510 --> 01:22:16,960
category of newton

2266
01:22:20,149 --> 01:22:19,520
oh he is he's unquestionably one of the

2267
01:22:23,830 --> 01:22:20,159
all-time

2268
01:22:25,910 --> 01:22:23,840
spectacular greats yeah yeah

2269
01:22:27,350 --> 01:22:25,920
universally right he's just brilliant in

2270
01:22:30,950 --> 01:22:27,360
everything

2271
01:22:33,510 --> 01:22:30,960
yeah okay okay okay so anyway but but

2272
01:22:35,270 --> 01:22:33,520
that's the bucket but you see newton uh

2273
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:35,280
newton nsaid

2274
01:22:38,870 --> 01:22:37,440
gave a second version it's the same

2275
01:22:40,149 --> 01:22:38,880
argument but this is the really

2276
01:22:43,990 --> 01:22:40,159
interesting one

2277
01:22:46,870 --> 01:22:44,000
so uh he says uh you imagine two spheres

2278
01:22:47,350 --> 01:22:46,880
connected by uh a chord or a rod or

2279
01:22:49,990 --> 01:22:47,360
something

2280
01:22:50,950 --> 01:22:50,000
a chord negative chord or any lasting

2281
01:22:55,110 --> 01:22:50,960
and he says

2282
01:22:57,990 --> 01:22:55,120
um uh there there's a tension

2283
01:22:58,709 --> 01:22:58,000
in the elastic okay it's stretched um

2284
01:23:00,390 --> 01:22:58,719
the material

2285
01:23:02,870 --> 01:23:00,400
sorry sorry is this in your thought

2286
01:23:03,270 --> 01:23:02,880
experiment book as well that i can place

2287
01:23:14,070 --> 01:23:03,280
it

2288
01:23:15,910 --> 01:23:14,080
the two spheres

2289
01:23:17,110 --> 01:23:15,920
and they could be made out of some

2290
01:23:19,189 --> 01:23:17,120
massive thing

2291
01:23:21,430 --> 01:23:19,199
you could be would if they don't attract

2292
01:23:24,070 --> 01:23:21,440
or retail but there's a tension

2293
01:23:25,910 --> 01:23:24,080
okay the chord is stretched okay okay

2294
01:23:29,189 --> 01:23:25,920
okay how could you explain this

2295
01:23:30,870 --> 01:23:29,199
there's nothing in the universe it's an

2296
01:23:32,950 --> 01:23:30,880
empty universe how do you explain it

2297
01:23:35,270 --> 01:23:32,960
newton says easy the whole thing is

2298
01:23:38,550 --> 01:23:35,280
rotating

2299
01:23:40,229 --> 01:23:38,560
and you see the the individual objects

2300
01:23:41,830 --> 01:23:40,239
try to move in straight lines they try

2301
01:23:44,310 --> 01:23:41,840
to move inertially

2302
01:23:46,070 --> 01:23:44,320
and hence they're it's stretching the uh

2303
01:23:48,550 --> 01:23:46,080
the cord between them

2304
01:23:49,590 --> 01:23:48,560
and that's how you account for it well

2305
01:23:53,350 --> 01:23:49,600
what's the cause

2306
01:23:56,709 --> 01:23:53,360
of this inertial motion space itself

2307
01:24:00,229 --> 01:23:56,719
space is the source of inertial motion

2308
01:24:03,110 --> 01:24:00,239
and inertial forces and stuff like that

2309
01:24:04,310 --> 01:24:03,120
this is the if now if you're if you're

2310
01:24:06,070 --> 01:24:04,320
um

2311
01:24:09,750 --> 01:24:06,080
if you're someone like leibniz you're

2312
01:24:14,070 --> 01:24:12,629
because space see for newton space has

2313
01:24:16,629 --> 01:24:14,080
real properties

2314
01:24:18,310 --> 01:24:16,639
it can cause things it causes things to

2315
01:24:20,390 --> 01:24:18,320
move in straight lines

2316
01:24:21,910 --> 01:24:20,400
that's why if you throw an object no

2317
01:24:22,870 --> 01:24:21,920
force on it it'll move in a straight

2318
01:24:26,470 --> 01:24:22,880
line

2319
01:24:27,669 --> 01:24:26,480
it's space that sort of guides it as it

2320
01:24:30,470 --> 01:24:27,679
were that way

2321
01:24:32,070 --> 01:24:30,480
okay and if there were no space um it

2322
01:24:33,590 --> 01:24:32,080
there'd be no accounting for why it

2323
01:24:34,149 --> 01:24:33,600
moves in a straight line rather than

2324
01:24:37,590 --> 01:24:34,159
just

2325
01:24:40,709 --> 01:24:37,600
at random leidness leibniz

2326
01:24:43,430 --> 01:24:40,719
died before he could really tackle

2327
01:24:45,430 --> 01:24:43,440
that issue and he who knows he might

2328
01:24:47,030 --> 01:24:45,440
have even been won over by it

2329
01:24:48,550 --> 01:24:47,040
you wanted to know about how einstein

2330
01:24:50,950 --> 01:24:48,560
reacted to this

2331
01:24:52,229 --> 01:24:50,960
right einstein changed his mind but

2332
01:24:54,950 --> 01:24:52,239
early on

2333
01:24:56,790 --> 01:24:54,960
and this is at the in the very first

2334
01:24:59,110 --> 01:24:56,800
couple of pages in the

2335
01:25:00,709 --> 01:24:59,120
in the paper on general relativity for

2336
01:25:02,229 --> 01:25:00,719
the audience just to clarify

2337
01:25:04,390 --> 01:25:02,239
the newton bucket experiment

2338
01:25:07,750 --> 01:25:04,400
demonstrated at least for newton

2339
01:25:10,390 --> 01:25:07,760
the presence of absolute space

2340
01:25:11,510 --> 01:25:10,400
that's right space is a thing in its own

2341
01:25:15,350 --> 01:25:11,520
right

2342
01:25:18,629 --> 01:25:15,360
yeah um what what

2343
01:25:21,510 --> 01:25:18,639
what einstein does is he he

2344
01:25:23,110 --> 01:25:21,520
rejects the whole setup so he imagines

2345
01:25:24,550 --> 01:25:23,120
two spheres that are rotating with

2346
01:25:26,950 --> 01:25:24,560
respect to one another

2347
01:25:29,590 --> 01:25:26,960
and one is perfectly spherical and the

2348
01:25:34,470 --> 01:25:29,600
other one's a kind of um

2349
01:25:39,350 --> 01:25:34,480
um an ellipse of revolution

2350
01:25:41,350 --> 01:25:39,360
okay so it's elongated at its equator

2351
01:25:44,149 --> 01:25:41,360
okay just like our earth spinning on its

2352
01:25:47,189 --> 01:25:44,159
axis it's a little wider at the equator

2353
01:25:49,110 --> 01:25:47,199
so einstein imagines these two things uh

2354
01:25:50,790 --> 01:25:49,120
in an otherwise empty space and he says

2355
01:25:53,430 --> 01:25:50,800
how can you explain this

2356
01:25:54,229 --> 01:25:53,440
and then he says you can't you must

2357
01:25:57,750 --> 01:25:54,239
appeal

2358
01:25:58,149 --> 01:25:57,760
to distant matter in the presence of

2359
01:26:01,990 --> 01:25:58,159
this is

2360
01:26:04,950 --> 01:26:02,000
of this

2361
01:26:06,070 --> 01:26:04,960
you must appeal to distant matter that

2362
01:26:11,669 --> 01:26:06,080
you can

2363
01:26:13,669 --> 01:26:11,679
and one of the uh objects the the

2364
01:26:16,870 --> 01:26:13,679
ellipse of revolution

2365
01:26:18,870 --> 01:26:16,880
um that object not the spherical one but

2366
01:26:20,550 --> 01:26:18,880
that object is rotating with respect to

2367
01:26:24,149 --> 01:26:20,560
that distant mass

2368
01:26:27,430 --> 01:26:26,470
that causes the inertial motion it's the

2369
01:26:32,310 --> 01:26:27,440
presence of a

2370
01:26:33,430 --> 01:26:32,320
of billions of distribution okay

2371
01:26:35,590 --> 01:26:33,440
let me see if i have this correct

2372
01:26:37,350 --> 01:26:35,600
because i don't recall this so are you

2373
01:26:38,870 --> 01:26:37,360
is what you're saying something like we

2374
01:26:39,189 --> 01:26:38,880
don't know if we're rotating unless we

2375
01:26:42,229 --> 01:26:39,199
see

2376
01:26:43,910 --> 01:26:42,239
stars rotating above us

2377
01:26:45,430 --> 01:26:43,920
yeah or is this completely is it because

2378
01:26:48,390 --> 01:26:45,440
it's outside that's einstein

2379
01:26:50,310 --> 01:26:48,400
yeah okay what about the centripetal

2380
01:26:52,149 --> 01:26:50,320
force or centrifugal force

2381
01:26:53,830 --> 01:26:52,159
so what does he say about that we

2382
01:26:55,830 --> 01:26:53,840
wouldn't feel it

2383
01:26:57,030 --> 01:26:55,840
it's not caused by rotation with respect

2384
01:26:58,950 --> 01:26:57,040
to space

2385
01:27:00,149 --> 01:26:58,960
it's caused by rotation with respect to

2386
01:27:03,669 --> 01:27:00,159
distant matter

2387
01:27:06,709 --> 01:27:03,679
in fact this is mark

2388
01:27:07,669 --> 01:27:06,719
marx mark made an empirical claim about

2389
01:27:09,830 --> 01:27:07,679
this

2390
01:27:11,189 --> 01:27:09,840
and i don't think it's very practical so

2391
01:27:13,350 --> 01:27:11,199
no one can ever do it

2392
01:27:16,070 --> 01:27:13,360
but mark said imagine that you did

2393
01:27:19,990 --> 01:27:16,080
newton's bucket

2394
01:27:21,910 --> 01:27:20,000
in a bucket where the where the walls of

2395
01:27:24,950 --> 01:27:21,920
the bucket were several miles

2396
01:27:28,310 --> 01:27:24,960
thick okay okay

2397
01:27:31,510 --> 01:27:28,320
so imagine them 100 miles thick

2398
01:27:33,030 --> 01:27:31,520
incredible mass then you and you rotate

2399
01:27:35,350 --> 01:27:33,040
this thing

2400
01:27:37,189 --> 01:27:35,360
yeah okay so in newton's bucket when you

2401
01:27:38,310 --> 01:27:37,199
rotate it the wall the water starts to

2402
01:27:40,709 --> 01:27:38,320
climb the wall

2403
01:27:41,350 --> 01:27:40,719
yeah lock said if you've got enough mass

2404
01:27:45,430 --> 01:27:41,360
in the bucket

2405
01:27:48,629 --> 01:27:45,440
itself the water would stay level

2406
01:27:50,709 --> 01:27:48,639
uh-huh therefore it's not

2407
01:27:53,110 --> 01:27:50,719
rotation with respect to space it's

2408
01:27:56,149 --> 01:27:53,120
rotation with respect to

2409
01:27:58,830 --> 01:27:56,159
external masses this is the bucket it

2410
01:28:03,910 --> 01:28:02,229
yeah but you need you need such a big

2411
01:28:06,229 --> 01:28:03,920
bucket

2412
01:28:07,830 --> 01:28:06,239
you know you couldn't you couldn't you

2413
01:28:10,229 --> 01:28:07,840
couldn't ask

2414
01:28:11,350 --> 01:28:10,239
the government to to pay for this

2415
01:28:13,110 --> 01:28:11,360
experiment

2416
01:28:15,669 --> 01:28:13,120
they would be they would be turfed out

2417
01:28:18,070 --> 01:28:15,679
of power in the next election when that

2418
01:28:19,430 --> 01:28:18,080
when the population got wind of it in

2419
01:28:21,189 --> 01:28:19,440
your thought experiment book

2420
01:28:23,030 --> 01:28:21,199
you fractionate into two there's

2421
01:28:24,470 --> 01:28:23,040
constructive destructive types of

2422
01:28:26,470 --> 01:28:24,480
thought experiments and then and then

2423
01:28:28,550 --> 01:28:26,480
constructive conjecture and so on

2424
01:28:29,510 --> 01:28:28,560
did you come up with that or was that

2425
01:28:32,550 --> 01:28:29,520
something you found

2426
01:28:34,390 --> 01:28:32,560
um there's a little bit in the uh um

2427
01:28:36,790 --> 01:28:34,400
well i should tell you when when i when

2428
01:28:39,430 --> 01:28:36,800
i first decided

2429
01:28:40,950 --> 01:28:39,440
what let me back up a little more when i

2430
01:28:41,990 --> 01:28:40,960
first heard about the galileo thought

2431
01:28:43,590 --> 01:28:42,000
experiment of the

2432
01:28:45,830 --> 01:28:43,600
falling bodies i thought that's the most

2433
01:28:49,590 --> 01:28:45,840
wonderful thing i'd ever heard

2434
01:28:52,229 --> 01:28:49,600
and then after i got tenure i thought

2435
01:28:52,870 --> 01:28:52,239
okay they can't fire me now return i'm

2436
01:28:54,790 --> 01:28:52,880
going to do

2437
01:28:55,990 --> 01:28:54,800
what i wanted to do for a long time and

2438
01:28:57,990 --> 01:28:56,000
i start thinking about

2439
01:28:59,990 --> 01:28:58,000
thought experiments and there's

2440
01:29:01,669 --> 01:29:00,000
virtually no literature on it

2441
01:29:03,590 --> 01:29:01,679
there's you know people make the odd

2442
01:29:05,030 --> 01:29:03,600
offhand remark and of course there are

2443
01:29:05,510 --> 01:29:05,040
lots of thought experiments floating

2444
01:29:07,350 --> 01:29:05,520
around

2445
01:29:09,110 --> 01:29:07,360
but nobody had ever written about it in

2446
01:29:10,550 --> 01:29:09,120
a collection what's their nature you

2447
01:29:13,669 --> 01:29:10,560
know how do they work and

2448
01:29:16,709 --> 01:29:13,679
stuff like that and i was shocked

2449
01:29:17,990 --> 01:29:16,719
that i could read uh almost everything

2450
01:29:19,990 --> 01:29:18,000
that had ever been written about thought

2451
01:29:23,430 --> 01:29:20,000
experiments in a long weekend

2452
01:29:23,990 --> 01:29:23,440
it was almost nothing a bit by mock and

2453
01:29:25,990 --> 01:29:24,000
a bit by

2454
01:29:27,189 --> 01:29:26,000
you know a few other people and that's

2455
01:29:29,990 --> 01:29:27,199
it

2456
01:29:31,990 --> 01:29:30,000
and um so the the few people who had

2457
01:29:33,990 --> 01:29:32,000
commented on it

2458
01:29:35,430 --> 01:29:34,000
usually divided things up into the

2459
01:29:37,669 --> 01:29:35,440
positive negative

2460
01:29:38,550 --> 01:29:37,679
kind of thought experiment thought

2461
01:29:40,229 --> 01:29:38,560
experiments which

2462
01:29:42,709 --> 01:29:40,239
you know get try to give you a new

2463
01:29:43,030 --> 01:29:42,719
theory versus thought experiments which

2464
01:29:46,149 --> 01:29:43,040
just

2465
01:29:49,189 --> 01:29:46,159
destroy an old theory

2466
01:29:50,470 --> 01:29:49,199
okay so schrodinger's cat is a negative

2467
01:29:52,229 --> 01:29:50,480
thought experiment in the sense that

2468
01:29:55,830 --> 01:29:52,239
it's just supposed to undermine

2469
01:29:58,229 --> 01:29:55,840
standard quantum mechanics um but other

2470
01:29:59,430 --> 01:29:58,239
other thought experiments like like

2471
01:30:01,830 --> 01:29:59,440
heisenberg's

2472
01:30:03,189 --> 01:30:01,840
mic gamma ray microscope which gives you

2473
01:30:05,830 --> 01:30:03,199
the uncertainty principle

2474
01:30:08,149 --> 01:30:05,840
that's more positive give you a new

2475
01:30:10,149 --> 01:30:08,159
positive result type thought experiments

2476
01:30:11,270 --> 01:30:10,159
so that there was a beginning of a

2477
01:30:13,350 --> 01:30:11,280
taxonomy

2478
01:30:17,510 --> 01:30:13,360
you know there then i then i just

2479
01:30:20,629 --> 01:30:19,110
okay you fine-tuned only the

2480
01:30:21,990 --> 01:30:20,639
constructive part well the destructive

2481
01:30:26,229 --> 01:30:22,000
part goes down to direct

2482
01:30:29,030 --> 01:30:26,239
so it's like i don't know what direction

2483
01:30:30,470 --> 01:30:29,040
and then one of the constructives goes

2484
01:30:35,189 --> 01:30:30,480
down to direct as well

2485
01:30:36,950 --> 01:30:35,199
yeah um i i think i can't remember now

2486
01:30:39,110 --> 01:30:36,960
whether i i mean there were some

2487
01:30:40,790 --> 01:30:39,120
distinctions i didn't bother making

2488
01:30:43,189 --> 01:30:40,800
but might have made in passing when i

2489
01:30:45,110 --> 01:30:43,199
was describing that taxonomy

2490
01:30:47,030 --> 01:30:45,120
um the negative thought experiments i

2491
01:30:47,990 --> 01:30:47,040
might have put them lumped them all

2492
01:30:51,030 --> 01:30:48,000
together is just

2493
01:30:54,390 --> 01:30:51,040
negative yeah um there's probably

2494
01:30:56,070 --> 01:30:54,400
uh an important difference between

2495
01:30:58,070 --> 01:30:56,080
uh negative thought experiments that

2496
01:31:00,830 --> 01:30:58,080
follow from the theory itself

2497
01:31:02,229 --> 01:31:00,840
which just shows that they're internally

2498
01:31:03,990 --> 01:31:02,239
incoherent

2499
01:31:05,750 --> 01:31:04,000
and negative thought experiments which

2500
01:31:09,669 --> 01:31:05,760
show a clash

2501
01:31:11,910 --> 01:31:09,679
between uh a theory and other

2502
01:31:13,350 --> 01:31:11,920
more or less established knowledge so i

2503
01:31:14,149 --> 01:31:13,360
would i could fine-tune there and you

2504
01:31:17,189 --> 01:31:14,159
could probably

2505
01:31:19,350 --> 01:31:17,199
make more distinctions and

2506
01:31:21,189 --> 01:31:19,360
anytime you're setting up a tech a

2507
01:31:22,070 --> 01:31:21,199
taxonomy there's a kind of balance

2508
01:31:24,070 --> 01:31:22,080
between

2509
01:31:25,990 --> 01:31:24,080
you know to what extent can this be

2510
01:31:27,590 --> 01:31:26,000
simplified and enlightening

2511
01:31:29,270 --> 01:31:27,600
and to what extent do you go into so

2512
01:31:31,830 --> 01:31:29,280
much detail it just becomes

2513
01:31:32,950 --> 01:31:31,840
you get lost and you get lost in the

2514
01:31:34,629 --> 01:31:32,960
detail

2515
01:31:35,990 --> 01:31:34,639
have you been keeping up with theories

2516
01:31:37,510 --> 01:31:36,000
of everything

2517
01:31:40,550 --> 01:31:37,520
there's been a couple of new ones this

2518
01:31:42,830 --> 01:31:40,560
year yeah a little bit

2519
01:31:46,070 --> 01:31:42,840
have you read up on wolframs or eric

2520
01:31:51,669 --> 01:31:49,669
no uh well from wilson's views

2521
01:31:53,590 --> 01:31:51,679
uh he just thinks that the world is an

2522
01:31:57,510 --> 01:31:53,600
automaton

2523
01:31:59,510 --> 01:31:57,520
and um uh he he sees digital computers

2524
01:32:01,990 --> 01:31:59,520
is answering all questions i

2525
01:32:03,750 --> 01:32:02,000
i'm i'm still sufficiently wedded to

2526
01:32:06,950 --> 01:32:03,760
continuity

2527
01:32:09,990 --> 01:32:06,960
in a lot of places that i don't i think

2528
01:32:13,270 --> 01:32:10,000
digitizing things is is only

2529
01:32:15,110 --> 01:32:13,280
a nifty approximation and uh good for

2530
01:32:16,709 --> 01:32:15,120
solving a lot of practical problems

2531
01:32:18,629 --> 01:32:16,719
but i don't think it's going to reveal

2532
01:32:21,590 --> 01:32:18,639
the deeper truth i may be wrong

2533
01:32:22,149 --> 01:32:21,600
i may be wrong um i have uh physics

2534
01:32:23,910 --> 01:32:22,159
friends

2535
01:32:25,350 --> 01:32:23,920
who do believe that space time is

2536
01:32:28,950 --> 01:32:25,360
discrete

2537
01:32:32,070 --> 01:32:28,960
yep and uh if they're right

2538
01:32:35,189 --> 01:32:32,080
then understanding the world in as a

2539
01:32:37,430 --> 01:32:35,199
gigantic digital computer um

2540
01:32:38,390 --> 01:32:37,440
that makes uh that becomes a little more

2541
01:32:40,070 --> 01:32:38,400
plausible

2542
01:32:41,669 --> 01:32:40,080
now you definitely should read that

2543
01:32:43,270 --> 01:32:41,679
paper that you sent me which i thought

2544
01:32:44,709 --> 01:32:43,280
that you knew nicholas jessen

2545
01:32:45,990 --> 01:32:44,719
and you were completely familiar with

2546
01:32:47,510 --> 01:32:46,000
his work but anyway just for the

2547
01:32:49,110 --> 01:32:47,520
audience remember i i did

2548
01:32:50,629 --> 01:32:49,120
i read it at the time i remember saying

2549
01:33:01,590 --> 01:32:50,639
i do remember sending it to you

2550
01:33:04,629 --> 01:33:03,830
is a physicist who was answering a

2551
01:33:06,550 --> 01:33:04,639
question that i was

2552
01:33:07,750 --> 01:33:06,560
curious about which is why i asked jim

2553
01:33:11,110 --> 01:33:07,760
here i said hey

2554
01:33:12,950 --> 01:33:11,120
is there any other

2555
01:33:14,790 --> 01:33:12,960
logical foundation of physics other than

2556
01:33:15,830 --> 01:33:14,800
classical logic

2557
01:33:17,110 --> 01:33:15,840
because i'm wondering i'm always i'm

2558
01:33:18,870 --> 01:33:17,120
curious like what's holding us back from

2559
01:33:20,950 --> 01:33:18,880
theories of everything and i'm trying to

2560
01:33:23,110 --> 01:33:20,960
tackle it from as many angles as i

2561
01:33:24,390 --> 01:33:23,120
as i can and so i thought maybe this is

2562
01:33:25,910 --> 01:33:24,400
one and you said well there is this

2563
01:33:28,149 --> 01:33:25,920
person named nicholas jessen who thinks

2564
01:33:29,990 --> 01:33:28,159
that intuitionist logic is a way to go

2565
01:33:31,750 --> 01:33:30,000
and i want to write that now i'm getting

2566
01:33:34,390 --> 01:33:31,760
i'm now it's coming back yes yes

2567
01:33:35,189 --> 01:33:34,400
okay and so what he was saying he has a

2568
01:33:38,390 --> 01:33:35,199
few different

2569
01:33:39,750 --> 01:33:38,400
reasons for believing that first of all

2570
01:33:41,590 --> 01:33:39,760
real numbers aren't real

2571
01:33:43,750 --> 01:33:41,600
and the reason for this is to say is

2572
01:33:44,870 --> 01:33:43,760
because there's only a finite amount of

2573
01:33:46,310 --> 01:33:44,880
information that can be in

2574
01:33:47,750 --> 01:33:46,320
any finite volume so let's say it's a

2575
01:33:48,149 --> 01:33:47,760
real number if it's an arbitrary real

2576
01:33:49,669 --> 01:33:48,159
number

2577
01:33:51,669 --> 01:33:49,679
then it's going to collapse into a black

2578
01:33:54,149 --> 01:33:51,679
hole if for whatever reason the particle

2579
01:33:56,390 --> 01:33:54,159
somehow carries that information with it

2580
01:33:57,990 --> 01:33:56,400
okay well you can leave and leave that

2581
01:34:00,310 --> 01:33:58,000
aside

2582
01:34:02,310 --> 01:34:00,320
he says that all of deterministic

2583
01:34:04,790 --> 01:34:02,320
physics like classical physics

2584
01:34:06,470 --> 01:34:04,800
actually is completely compatible with

2585
01:34:08,070 --> 01:34:06,480
an indeterministic view

2586
01:34:10,149 --> 01:34:08,080
forget about quantum mechanics and the

2587
01:34:11,430 --> 01:34:10,159
reason is that all we can do is test it

2588
01:34:14,470 --> 01:34:11,440
to a certain precision

2589
01:34:15,910 --> 01:34:14,480
let's say 30 decimal places that's

2590
01:34:17,750 --> 01:34:15,920
being a bit generous well let's say 30

2591
01:34:21,510 --> 01:34:17,760
decimal places for classical physics

2592
01:34:25,990 --> 01:34:21,520
then you can easily

2593
01:34:29,830 --> 01:34:26,000
construct indeterminate

2594
01:34:32,870 --> 01:34:29,840
um indeterminate functions so here's one

2595
01:34:34,070 --> 01:34:32,880
i can't say it because

2596
01:34:35,350 --> 01:34:34,080
i can't say it i would just have to

2597
01:34:37,189 --> 01:34:35,360
write the function out but let's say you

2598
01:34:38,790 --> 01:34:37,199
have the real line so zero to one

2599
01:34:40,790 --> 01:34:38,800
and then you you somehow stretch the

2600
01:34:42,070 --> 01:34:40,800
real line and then you cut the real line

2601
01:34:43,910 --> 01:34:42,080
in half

2602
01:34:45,430 --> 01:34:43,920
i'll have to tell you what the function

2603
01:34:47,030 --> 01:34:45,440
is but either way

2604
01:34:48,629 --> 01:34:47,040
that real line you can describe any

2605
01:34:51,910 --> 01:34:48,639
number as zero point

2606
01:34:54,470 --> 01:34:51,920
b one b two be like the digits of okay

2607
01:34:54,950 --> 01:34:54,480
great what that function effectively

2608
01:34:57,189 --> 01:34:54,960
does

2609
01:34:58,870 --> 01:34:57,199
is remove the first digit so instead of

2610
01:35:02,229 --> 01:34:58,880
it being zero point b one b two b

2611
01:35:07,430 --> 01:35:02,239
three it's zero point b2 b3 b4

2612
01:35:13,189 --> 01:35:10,870
given that let's say finite

2613
01:35:14,950 --> 01:35:13,199
let's say non-real numbers are

2614
01:35:15,830 --> 01:35:14,960
completely compatible with classical

2615
01:35:19,189 --> 01:35:15,840
physics because

2616
01:35:22,390 --> 01:35:19,199
we don't know where the end

2617
01:35:26,229 --> 01:35:22,400
of the error bar effectively gives

2618
01:35:28,550 --> 01:35:26,239
a a real number or if it's just

2619
01:35:29,669 --> 01:35:28,560
cut off you understand you understand

2620
01:35:32,070 --> 01:35:29,679
what i'm saying sorry if i'm

2621
01:35:32,709 --> 01:35:32,080
if i'm not explaining correctly okay

2622
01:35:34,310 --> 01:35:32,719
given that

2623
01:35:35,990 --> 01:35:34,320
then we can have these simple systems

2624
01:35:38,629 --> 01:35:36,000
that actually are not just

2625
01:35:40,229 --> 01:35:38,639
chaotic because we don't have sufficient

2626
01:35:44,149 --> 01:35:40,239
information but because

2627
01:35:46,550 --> 01:35:44,159
within it it genuinely is indeterminate

2628
01:35:48,229 --> 01:35:46,560
for example that function like if you

2629
01:35:49,270 --> 01:35:48,239
just choose an arbitrary okay so you get

2630
01:35:50,629 --> 01:35:49,280
the idea

2631
01:35:53,030 --> 01:35:50,639
okay so then he was saying that

2632
01:35:54,390 --> 01:35:53,040
indeterminacy is not incompatible with

2633
01:35:56,310 --> 01:35:54,400
classical physics even though

2634
01:35:57,830 --> 01:35:56,320
we like to think of classical physics as

2635
01:36:00,950 --> 01:35:57,840
being a determinant theory

2636
01:36:02,870 --> 01:36:00,960
you can't it's so then he goes on to say

2637
01:36:05,109 --> 01:36:02,880
calling physics deterministic or

2638
01:36:08,070 --> 01:36:05,119
indeterministic is not a scientific

2639
01:36:09,669 --> 01:36:08,080
question because both models predict the

2640
01:36:10,870 --> 01:36:09,679
exact same reality that we see

2641
01:36:12,310 --> 01:36:10,880
classically forget about quantum

2642
01:36:14,870 --> 01:36:12,320
mechanics

2643
01:36:16,709 --> 01:36:14,880
and then he goes on to make a connection

2644
01:36:18,390 --> 01:36:16,719
between that and free will

2645
01:36:20,310 --> 01:36:18,400
he's a proponent of free will much like

2646
01:36:22,709 --> 01:36:20,320
yourself and he says it can be saved

2647
01:36:24,709 --> 01:36:22,719
the clas the libertarian version of free

2648
01:36:28,070 --> 01:36:24,719
will not the compatibilist that is that

2649
01:36:29,990 --> 01:36:28,080
i choose from the possible world

2650
01:36:31,189 --> 01:36:30,000
well anyway that's extremely intriguing

2651
01:36:32,790 --> 01:36:31,199
to me like one

2652
01:36:35,109 --> 01:36:32,800
so i thank you so much for that and i'm

2653
01:36:37,430 --> 01:36:35,119
going to talk to nicholas about that

2654
01:36:38,709 --> 01:36:37,440
good oh that that's i'm i'm i'm glad you

2655
01:36:41,990 --> 01:36:38,719
got so much out of it

2656
01:36:45,350 --> 01:36:42,000
my instincts are to uh disagree uh

2657
01:36:47,669 --> 01:36:45,360
quite strongly um to start with i'm

2658
01:36:50,229 --> 01:36:47,679
a a realist and a platonist about math

2659
01:36:53,189 --> 01:36:50,239
not a constructivist not an intuitionist

2660
01:36:54,070 --> 01:36:53,199
so i think all those decimal expansion

2661
01:36:56,629 --> 01:36:54,080
to infinity

2662
01:36:57,510 --> 01:36:56,639
it exists um but it exists in plato's

2663
01:36:59,590 --> 01:36:57,520
heaven

2664
01:37:01,510 --> 01:36:59,600
so i don't know how he's i don't know

2665
01:37:04,149 --> 01:37:01,520
where black holes would come in unless

2666
01:37:05,990 --> 01:37:04,159
he's trying to physicalize the numbers

2667
01:37:08,390 --> 01:37:06,000
and then the decimal representation

2668
01:37:10,870 --> 01:37:08,400
would require an infinite amount of ink

2669
01:37:11,830 --> 01:37:10,880
in a very small space and collapse into

2670
01:37:14,149 --> 01:37:11,840
a black hole

2671
01:37:16,390 --> 01:37:14,159
some now i'm i'm i'm sort of joking and

2672
01:37:19,990 --> 01:37:16,400
saying yeah i understand

2673
01:37:23,189 --> 01:37:20,000
but the thing is um i think uh

2674
01:37:26,390 --> 01:37:23,199
you need real numbers

2675
01:37:28,950 --> 01:37:26,400
irrational real numbers in uh

2676
01:37:32,470 --> 01:37:28,960
in physics um think of try try to

2677
01:37:35,590 --> 01:37:32,480
imagine doing physics without pie

2678
01:37:36,950 --> 01:37:35,600
which is uh an irrational number

2679
01:37:39,030 --> 01:37:36,960
okay it's got an infinite decimal

2680
01:37:39,990 --> 01:37:39,040
expansion try to try to imagine doing

2681
01:37:43,350 --> 01:37:40,000
physics

2682
01:37:45,109 --> 01:37:43,360
without um the square root of two

2683
01:37:46,709 --> 01:37:45,119
square root of two comes up all over the

2684
01:37:47,990 --> 01:37:46,719
place in just in quantum mechanics

2685
01:37:50,709 --> 01:37:48,000
you've got a

2686
01:37:51,189 --> 01:37:50,719
two-state system you know it can it

2687
01:37:53,350 --> 01:37:51,199
could be

2688
01:37:55,189 --> 01:37:53,360
an upper or down and you describe the

2689
01:37:58,310 --> 01:37:55,199
state as one over root two

2690
01:37:59,990 --> 01:37:58,320
up plus one over root two down

2691
01:38:01,590 --> 01:38:00,000
and then to get the probability you

2692
01:38:04,709 --> 01:38:01,600
square that so

2693
01:38:06,629 --> 01:38:04,719
square one over root two squared is one

2694
01:38:08,070 --> 01:38:06,639
becomes one half and that of course you

2695
01:38:10,229 --> 01:38:08,080
can measure accurately but you're gonna

2696
01:38:10,629 --> 01:38:10,239
always represent it as one over root two

2697
01:38:14,229 --> 01:38:10,639
you

2698
01:38:16,870 --> 01:38:14,239
he may say

2699
01:38:19,030 --> 01:38:16,880
ah but i'm only appealing to an

2700
01:38:21,350 --> 01:38:19,040
approximation of one over root two

2701
01:38:23,430 --> 01:38:21,360
like i only need five if i went five

2702
01:38:25,030 --> 01:38:23,440
decimal places

2703
01:38:27,030 --> 01:38:25,040
and so i'm really it's really a rational

2704
01:38:29,430 --> 01:38:27,040
number that's all i need for

2705
01:38:32,870 --> 01:38:29,440
complete empirical adequacy it would be

2706
01:38:37,030 --> 01:38:32,880
hard to argue with him over that

2707
01:38:40,149 --> 01:38:37,040
i think my my best argument against him

2708
01:38:41,350 --> 01:38:40,159
would be the utter simplicity of the

2709
01:38:44,390 --> 01:38:41,360
real numbers

2710
01:38:45,350 --> 01:38:44,400
as opposed to truncating them and

2711
01:38:48,950 --> 01:38:45,360
turning them into

2712
01:38:51,510 --> 01:38:48,960
uh rational numbers to do physics

2713
01:38:53,430 --> 01:38:51,520
but but from an empirical point of view

2714
01:38:55,990 --> 01:38:53,440
i may have to concede

2715
01:38:58,070 --> 01:38:56,000
that there's not going to be any

2716
01:39:01,430 --> 01:38:58,080
empirical distinction

2717
01:39:02,550 --> 01:39:01,440
right between the two right okay i'm

2718
01:39:04,550 --> 01:39:02,560
gonna read from your

2719
01:39:06,149 --> 01:39:04,560
book oh before i get to that you did

2720
01:39:07,910 --> 01:39:06,159
mention that there are some examples of

2721
01:39:10,470 --> 01:39:07,920
non-platonic forms of mathematical

2722
01:39:13,990 --> 01:39:12,229
i i can't conceive of that so do you

2723
01:39:16,229 --> 01:39:14,000
mind expounding you said

2724
01:39:17,109 --> 01:39:16,239
you said that mill or kitcher kitcher

2725
01:39:21,430 --> 01:39:17,119
yes that's right or

2726
01:39:24,870 --> 01:39:21,440
oh yes yes yes yes sure okay uh he um um

2727
01:39:26,790 --> 01:39:24,880
mill is easy he's the classic example

2728
01:39:28,390 --> 01:39:26,800
so he's he'd be you'd call him a

2729
01:39:30,950 --> 01:39:28,400
mathematical realist

2730
01:39:32,390 --> 01:39:30,960
almost everybody who which mill is this

2731
01:39:34,629 --> 01:39:32,400
uh john stuart mill

2732
01:39:36,790 --> 01:39:34,639
okay okay almost everybody who's a

2733
01:39:39,270 --> 01:39:36,800
mathematical realist uses

2734
01:39:40,709 --> 01:39:39,280
realism platonism roughly

2735
01:39:41,990 --> 01:39:40,719
interchangeably

2736
01:39:43,990 --> 01:39:42,000
i mean they might they might want to

2737
01:39:46,470 --> 01:39:44,000
make some fine distinctions

2738
01:39:47,669 --> 01:39:46,480
uh and that's because almost everybody

2739
01:39:50,390 --> 01:39:47,679
who is a realist

2740
01:39:51,270 --> 01:39:50,400
is happy to be called a platoonist but

2741
01:39:53,430 --> 01:39:51,280
there is

2742
01:39:55,430 --> 01:39:53,440
mill is a mathematical realist who is

2743
01:39:58,950 --> 01:39:55,440
absolutely not a platonist

2744
01:40:02,149 --> 01:39:58,960
so for nil numbers are really just um

2745
01:40:02,709 --> 01:40:02,159
a kind of abstraction from the physical

2746
01:40:06,709 --> 01:40:02,719
realm

2747
01:40:09,830 --> 01:40:06,719
like colors so when i say

2748
01:40:10,709 --> 01:40:09,840
2 plus two equals four i'm actually

2749
01:40:13,990 --> 01:40:10,719
talking about

2750
01:40:16,470 --> 01:40:14,000
physical stuff so two apples

2751
01:40:17,350 --> 01:40:16,480
it's just a short form for a more

2752
01:40:22,310 --> 01:40:17,360
general

2753
01:40:24,149 --> 01:40:22,320
two apples equals four apples

2754
01:40:26,070 --> 01:40:24,159
two liters of water plus two liters of

2755
01:40:29,189 --> 01:40:26,080
water is four liters of water

2756
01:40:30,950 --> 01:40:29,199
etc etc etc i just i just simplify it to

2757
01:40:32,870 --> 01:40:30,960
two plus two equals four

2758
01:40:35,189 --> 01:40:32,880
but it is learned empirically and it's

2759
01:40:38,310 --> 01:40:35,199
about the physical empirical world

2760
01:40:42,470 --> 01:40:38,320
that's mill okay

2761
01:40:44,390 --> 01:40:42,480
um fraga made a lot of fun of him

2762
01:40:46,070 --> 01:40:44,400
nobody believes bill they think it's

2763
01:40:48,470 --> 01:40:46,080
preposterous view

2764
01:40:49,189 --> 01:40:48,480
uh but you see how it's realist in the

2765
01:40:51,750 --> 01:40:49,199
sense that

2766
01:40:53,109 --> 01:40:51,760
it's about reality and it's meant to be

2767
01:40:54,470 --> 01:40:53,119
literally true

2768
01:40:56,229 --> 01:40:54,480
yeah i just don't see how it's not

2769
01:40:58,229 --> 01:40:56,239
platonistic so can you help me out

2770
01:40:59,910 --> 01:40:58,239
because if it's saying that the

2771
01:41:02,709 --> 01:40:59,920
generalities are true what does he mean

2772
01:41:04,310 --> 01:41:02,719
by true where do they exist

2773
01:41:07,910 --> 01:41:04,320
so if you're saying that if i said if i

2774
01:41:10,470 --> 01:41:07,920
said these apples are red

2775
01:41:11,990 --> 01:41:10,480
yeah okay that's a straightforward

2776
01:41:14,629 --> 01:41:12,000
empirical realm

2777
01:41:15,910 --> 01:41:14,639
uh the the the fact that they're really

2778
01:41:18,950 --> 01:41:15,920
lengthy

2779
01:41:20,709 --> 01:41:18,960
right here this this is it and if i said

2780
01:41:22,470 --> 01:41:20,719
these two apples and these two apples

2781
01:41:25,510 --> 01:41:22,480
make four apples

2782
01:41:27,189 --> 01:41:25,520
it's all about what's right here okay

2783
01:41:30,070 --> 01:41:27,199
there's nothing about plato's heaven in

2784
01:41:31,750 --> 01:41:30,080
that it's all right here

2785
01:41:33,910 --> 01:41:31,760
it's just that when i say two plus two

2786
01:41:35,990 --> 01:41:33,920
equals four without reference to apples

2787
01:41:39,109 --> 01:41:36,000
or liters of water or

2788
01:41:39,750 --> 01:41:39,119
or or chocolate biscuit or anything like

2789
01:41:42,310 --> 01:41:39,760
that

2790
01:41:44,390 --> 01:41:42,320
um it's it's a it's kind of abstracted

2791
01:41:47,750 --> 01:41:44,400
from but it's really about

2792
01:41:49,350 --> 01:41:47,760
the physical realm uh uh okay so let me

2793
01:41:52,470 --> 01:41:49,360
see if i get the difference

2794
01:41:55,750 --> 01:41:52,480
okay okay the platonist would say

2795
01:41:58,790 --> 01:41:55,760
you're reflecting some other truer world

2796
01:42:00,550 --> 01:41:58,800
and mill would say you're

2797
01:42:01,910 --> 01:42:00,560
predicated on this world it's true but

2798
01:42:02,709 --> 01:42:01,920
it's dependent on this world not some

2799
01:42:04,550 --> 01:42:02,719
other world

2800
01:42:05,910 --> 01:42:04,560
is that what you mean yeah but mill

2801
01:42:08,070 --> 01:42:05,920
would say and there's no other world

2802
01:42:11,189 --> 01:42:08,080
it's just this one

2803
01:42:13,270 --> 01:42:11,199
um uh the closest i can think of

2804
01:42:14,390 --> 01:42:13,280
for an analogy would be talking about

2805
01:42:16,470 --> 01:42:14,400
colors

2806
01:42:19,189 --> 01:42:16,480
so i mean i can say this apple is red

2807
01:42:21,430 --> 01:42:19,199
that banana is yellow

2808
01:42:23,109 --> 01:42:21,440
but i can say at a slightly more

2809
01:42:24,229 --> 01:42:23,119
abstract level but i'm still here in the

2810
01:42:28,629 --> 01:42:24,239
world

2811
01:42:31,109 --> 01:42:28,639
red plus yellow make orange

2812
01:42:31,830 --> 01:42:31,119
see i'm i'm still here in the imperial

2813
01:42:34,310 --> 01:42:31,840
world

2814
01:42:36,229 --> 01:42:34,320
yeah i see even though i'm not talking

2815
01:42:37,430 --> 01:42:36,239
about a particular apple or a particular

2816
01:42:40,149 --> 01:42:37,440
banana but

2817
01:42:41,270 --> 01:42:40,159
red plus yellow make orange so why is

2818
01:42:42,950 --> 01:42:41,280
that ridiculous

2819
01:42:44,550 --> 01:42:42,960
why is mills what you said that mill is

2820
01:42:46,310 --> 01:42:44,560
laughed at by fraga and many other

2821
01:42:47,910 --> 01:42:46,320
mathematicians

2822
01:42:50,629 --> 01:42:47,920
if the universe if the universe is

2823
01:42:50,950 --> 01:42:50,639
finite if if we thought it was finite if

2824
01:42:53,669 --> 01:42:50,960
we

2825
01:42:54,229 --> 01:42:53,679
just standard big bang the universe is

2826
01:42:59,510 --> 01:42:54,239
finite

2827
01:43:02,790 --> 01:42:59,520
many things in it

2828
01:43:06,310 --> 01:43:02,800
that means there's the biggest number

2829
01:43:10,790 --> 01:43:06,320
and i say oh let's call it

2830
01:43:13,990 --> 01:43:10,800
n biggest number that's it i say well

2831
01:43:15,590 --> 01:43:14,000
what about n plus one do you think n

2832
01:43:17,910 --> 01:43:15,600
plus one is bigger than

2833
01:43:19,350 --> 01:43:17,920
n and of course you'd say of course it

2834
01:43:22,470 --> 01:43:19,360
is

2835
01:43:23,990 --> 01:43:22,480
and mill doesn't know how what's mill

2836
01:43:26,390 --> 01:43:24,000
going to say there's no such numbers

2837
01:43:27,830 --> 01:43:26,400
in plus one you're just making it up i

2838
01:43:32,709 --> 01:43:27,840
see

2839
01:43:33,350 --> 01:43:32,719
believe there are infinitely many prime

2840
01:43:37,510 --> 01:43:33,360
numbers

2841
01:43:40,950 --> 01:43:37,520
know actually what to do with this

2842
01:43:42,790 --> 01:43:40,960
if the universe is finite

2843
01:43:45,189 --> 01:43:42,800
if the world if the universe is infinite

2844
01:43:46,390 --> 01:43:45,199
he got lucky and maybe he can get around

2845
01:43:49,270 --> 01:43:46,400
that problem

2846
01:43:51,350 --> 01:43:49,280
but he's going to have a lot of problems

2847
01:43:54,310 --> 01:43:51,360
why does the universe being finite mean

2848
01:43:56,950 --> 01:43:54,320
that there has to be a finite

2849
01:43:58,390 --> 01:43:56,960
conceptual number because even with the

2850
01:44:04,229 --> 01:43:58,400
if you think of numbers

2851
01:44:04,709 --> 01:44:04,239
uh as ref with reference to the physical

2852
01:44:05,990 --> 01:44:04,719
world

2853
01:44:08,310 --> 01:44:06,000
okay if you think of them as

2854
01:44:10,629 --> 01:44:08,320
independently existing in plato's heaven

2855
01:44:12,629 --> 01:44:10,639
no problem the world could be the world

2856
01:44:15,030 --> 01:44:12,639
could just cease to exist and still

2857
01:44:16,709 --> 01:44:15,040
all all those all those things in plato

2858
01:44:18,870 --> 01:44:16,719
seven would be just fine

2859
01:44:20,870 --> 01:44:18,880
could you still not save it by saying

2860
01:44:21,910 --> 01:44:20,880
for example right now on my desktop i

2861
01:44:24,550 --> 01:44:21,920
have a few items

2862
01:44:25,669 --> 01:44:24,560
and then there's a there's n factorial

2863
01:44:27,830 --> 01:44:25,679
way of

2864
01:44:29,430 --> 01:44:27,840
well not your n but a little little case

2865
01:44:31,669 --> 01:44:29,440
n way factorial way of

2866
01:44:33,669 --> 01:44:31,679
of arranging them and then you just keep

2867
01:44:35,590 --> 01:44:33,679
adding so no matter what even when you

2868
01:44:37,189 --> 01:44:35,600
okay yeah yeah you can keep doing the

2869
01:44:39,669 --> 01:44:37,199
combinatorics

2870
01:44:43,830 --> 01:44:39,679
um ad nauseam but you're still never

2871
01:44:48,070 --> 01:44:45,669
because let's say we okay i'm just

2872
01:44:50,390 --> 01:44:48,080
trying to grapple with this so let's say

2873
01:44:51,270 --> 01:44:50,400
we come up with large n so that's your n

2874
01:44:54,310 --> 01:44:51,280
then i say

2875
01:44:55,270 --> 01:44:54,320
well let's still permute that a bit more

2876
01:44:57,590 --> 01:44:55,280
and then we get n

2877
01:44:58,790 --> 01:44:57,600
factorial the big n factorial and then

2878
01:45:00,070 --> 01:44:58,800
we say well that's a maximum then we

2879
01:45:02,550 --> 01:45:00,080
just factorial again and we still get

2880
01:45:04,790 --> 01:45:02,560
infinity so we still get any possible

2881
01:45:08,070 --> 01:45:04,800
number can be reached with this number

2882
01:45:10,629 --> 01:45:08,080
they have to be tied somehow to the

2883
01:45:11,510 --> 01:45:10,639
empirical world remember he's a staunch

2884
01:45:14,310 --> 01:45:11,520
imperial

2885
01:45:14,950 --> 01:45:14,320
empiricist and he doesn't like platonism

2886
01:45:18,229 --> 01:45:14,960
he doesn't like

2887
01:45:21,830 --> 01:45:18,239
abstract entities so um if i had

2888
01:45:25,669 --> 01:45:21,840
um if i have two apples

2889
01:45:27,910 --> 01:45:25,679
if i have two apples i can say okay one

2890
01:45:29,590 --> 01:45:27,920
two and then i can bunch them together

2891
01:45:30,709 --> 01:45:29,600
and say i can say now that's a third

2892
01:45:32,790 --> 01:45:30,719
object

2893
01:45:34,709 --> 01:45:32,800
okay okay so he would have a he would

2894
01:45:36,790 --> 01:45:34,719
have a problem with possibilities

2895
01:45:37,750 --> 01:45:36,800
the reason why yeah yeah yeah yeah

2896
01:45:39,109 --> 01:45:37,760
that's right because

2897
01:45:41,270 --> 01:45:39,119
they have to be concrete i have to be

2898
01:45:41,990 --> 01:45:41,280
measuring four apples i could say that

2899
01:45:43,430 --> 01:45:42,000
possibly

2900
01:45:44,709 --> 01:45:43,440
you can arrange them in eight but that's

2901
01:45:45,109 --> 01:45:44,719
because there exists something else

2902
01:45:47,910 --> 01:45:45,119
that's

2903
01:45:49,350 --> 01:45:47,920
i can concretize is eight sure okay okay

2904
01:45:50,629 --> 01:45:49,360
okay that's right

2905
01:45:52,870 --> 01:45:50,639
okay i get it i get it now i'm going to

2906
01:45:53,350 --> 01:45:52,880
read the last part of of your book which

2907
01:45:56,070 --> 01:45:53,360
i found

2908
01:45:56,470 --> 01:45:56,080
wonderful you say this my suggestion is

2909
01:45:58,709 --> 01:45:56,480
very

2910
01:46:00,070 --> 01:45:58,719
simple distant correlations are caused

2911
01:46:02,790 --> 01:46:00,080
by the laws of nature

2912
01:46:04,550 --> 01:46:02,800
i realize this almost sounds silly one

2913
01:46:05,750 --> 01:46:04,560
wants to say the correlations are the

2914
01:46:07,830 --> 01:46:05,760
laws of nature

2915
01:46:09,109 --> 01:46:07,840
but this if you recall in the preceding

2916
01:46:10,950 --> 01:46:09,119
chapters is not true

2917
01:46:13,030 --> 01:46:10,960
a law of nature is an independently

2918
01:46:14,629 --> 01:46:13,040
existing abstract entity a thing

2919
01:46:16,470 --> 01:46:14,639
in its own right which is responsible

2920
01:46:18,470 --> 01:46:16,480
for physical regularities

2921
01:46:19,990 --> 01:46:18,480
okay now this was in regards to

2922
01:46:23,270 --> 01:46:20,000
something called

2923
01:46:24,550 --> 01:46:23,280
the entanglement of bells inequality but

2924
01:46:26,390 --> 01:46:24,560
we can forget about that what you're

2925
01:46:30,390 --> 01:46:26,400
suggesting is that the physical laws

2926
01:46:31,830 --> 01:46:30,400
themselves are akin to entities

2927
01:46:33,350 --> 01:46:31,840
and i haven't heard that expressed

2928
01:46:34,149 --> 01:46:33,360
before and i think that's going to take

2929
01:46:36,950 --> 01:46:34,159
me maybe

2930
01:46:37,990 --> 01:46:36,960
maybe weeks or months to to fully

2931
01:46:39,990 --> 01:46:38,000
apprehend

2932
01:46:41,030 --> 01:46:40,000
and and perhaps even contribute some of

2933
01:46:42,709 --> 01:46:41,040
my own ideas to

2934
01:46:44,950 --> 01:46:42,719
it's a it's a brazen statement and i'm

2935
01:46:49,109 --> 01:46:44,960
i'm a fan of audacity so

2936
01:46:50,870 --> 01:46:49,119
can you expound on this yeah um

2937
01:46:52,709 --> 01:46:50,880
i'm not sure i i wrote that quite a

2938
01:46:55,350 --> 01:46:52,719
while ago and my views on quantum

2939
01:46:57,750 --> 01:46:55,360
mechanics are constantly in flux

2940
01:46:58,550 --> 01:46:57,760
so i'm not sure i would uh agree with

2941
01:47:00,470 --> 01:46:58,560
that

2942
01:47:03,350 --> 01:47:00,480
in particular however with the general

2943
01:47:05,189 --> 01:47:03,360
idea i certainly still

2944
01:47:06,709 --> 01:47:05,199
i still think that is true so let me

2945
01:47:09,350 --> 01:47:06,719
explain um

2946
01:47:10,709 --> 01:47:09,360
what i'm trying to get at for most

2947
01:47:13,830 --> 01:47:10,719
philosophers

2948
01:47:16,070 --> 01:47:13,840
they really really like david hume

2949
01:47:17,030 --> 01:47:16,080
david hume has a view about the nature

2950
01:47:19,510 --> 01:47:17,040
of causation

2951
01:47:21,590 --> 01:47:19,520
and the nature of laws of nature which

2952
01:47:23,590 --> 01:47:21,600
is very empiricist

2953
01:47:25,189 --> 01:47:23,600
and what it really amounts to is that a

2954
01:47:28,629 --> 01:47:25,199
law of nature is nothing but

2955
01:47:33,189 --> 01:47:28,639
a an empirical regularity so if i say

2956
01:47:35,510 --> 01:47:33,199
um um all ravens are black

2957
01:47:36,390 --> 01:47:35,520
or it's a law of nature that ravens are

2958
01:47:39,590 --> 01:47:36,400
black

2959
01:47:43,109 --> 01:47:39,600
what it just means is that um uh

2960
01:47:46,310 --> 01:47:43,119
every time i see a raven it's black

2961
01:47:49,270 --> 01:47:46,320
that's it that's all there is to it um

2962
01:47:50,870 --> 01:47:49,280
it's just away with causation yeah

2963
01:47:55,030 --> 01:47:50,880
causation is like that too

2964
01:47:58,629 --> 01:47:55,040
um fire is fire feels hot every time i

2965
01:48:01,750 --> 01:47:58,639
stick my hand in a fire it feels hot

2966
01:48:03,590 --> 01:48:01,760
the heat doesn't cause the pain it's

2967
01:48:05,990 --> 01:48:03,600
just correlated with the pain

2968
01:48:07,830 --> 01:48:06,000
okay every time i stick my hand in the

2969
01:48:10,629 --> 01:48:07,840
fire i feel pain

2970
01:48:12,550 --> 01:48:10,639
um it's just it's just this regularity

2971
01:48:13,510 --> 01:48:12,560
there's nothing more to causation than

2972
01:48:15,669 --> 01:48:13,520
the regularity

2973
01:48:17,590 --> 01:48:15,679
there's nothing more to a law of nature

2974
01:48:21,350 --> 01:48:17,600
than irregularity

2975
01:48:23,030 --> 01:48:21,360
so if i said explain why this raven is

2976
01:48:26,629 --> 01:48:23,040
black

2977
01:48:27,830 --> 01:48:26,639
hume would have to say um all ravens are

2978
01:48:33,910 --> 01:48:27,840
black

2979
01:48:35,910 --> 01:48:33,920
that's the only explanation he can give

2980
01:48:37,350 --> 01:48:35,920
his laws of nature are really just

2981
01:48:40,709 --> 01:48:37,360
summaries of

2982
01:48:42,310 --> 01:48:40,719
what we experience they can't really

2983
01:48:43,910 --> 01:48:42,320
explain anything they don't have any

2984
01:48:45,990 --> 01:48:43,920
explanations

2985
01:48:47,430 --> 01:48:46,000
they're like data points and then

2986
01:48:50,950 --> 01:48:47,440
generalizations

2987
01:48:54,070 --> 01:48:50,960
and then and then the law is nothing but

2988
01:48:56,790 --> 01:48:54,080
uh a summary of the data points okay

2989
01:48:57,990 --> 01:48:56,800
yeah there's no there's no explanatory

2990
01:48:59,910 --> 01:48:58,000
power there

2991
01:49:01,750 --> 01:48:59,920
okay now uh if you're a staunch

2992
01:49:04,950 --> 01:49:01,760
empiricist you're happy with that

2993
01:49:07,030 --> 01:49:04,960
you say science is in the business of of

2994
01:49:08,790 --> 01:49:07,040
organizing experience and predicting

2995
01:49:09,030 --> 01:49:08,800
experience but we're not in the business

2996
01:49:12,229 --> 01:49:09,040
of

2997
01:49:16,070 --> 01:49:12,239
actually explaining things okay

2998
01:49:19,350 --> 01:49:16,080
get explanation that's not our business

2999
01:49:21,030 --> 01:49:19,360
okay um i hate that view i think we're

3000
01:49:22,310 --> 01:49:21,040
in the business of explaining and

3001
01:49:24,310 --> 01:49:22,320
understanding

3002
01:49:26,310 --> 01:49:24,320
and stuff like that so a lot of

3003
01:49:30,310 --> 01:49:26,320
hard-nosed empiricists would call me

3004
01:49:34,149 --> 01:49:30,320
oh it's just mushy sentimental nonsense

3005
01:49:36,229 --> 01:49:34,159
but i'm sticking to my sentimentality

3006
01:49:38,390 --> 01:49:36,239
and i want understanding and i want

3007
01:49:41,589 --> 01:49:38,400
explanations and so on

3008
01:49:42,629 --> 01:49:41,599
so here's an alternative view of laws of

3009
01:49:48,229 --> 01:49:42,639
nature

3010
01:49:49,510 --> 01:49:48,239
they're actually connections between

3011
01:49:52,070 --> 01:49:49,520
properties

3012
01:49:53,109 --> 01:49:52,080
so i'll stick to the raven example even

3013
01:49:55,270 --> 01:49:53,119
though

3014
01:49:57,189 --> 01:49:55,280
it's it's probably a poor example but

3015
01:50:00,470 --> 01:49:57,199
it's very easy to understand

3016
01:50:03,030 --> 01:50:00,480
and illustrate so when i say uh

3017
01:50:05,510 --> 01:50:03,040
so there's properties raven there's the

3018
01:50:07,270 --> 01:50:05,520
property of ravenhood

3019
01:50:09,030 --> 01:50:07,280
okay that is the property of being a

3020
01:50:11,270 --> 01:50:09,040
raven being a member of a

3021
01:50:13,510 --> 01:50:11,280
set of ravens is ravenhood sure okay

3022
01:50:17,109 --> 01:50:13,520
okay and there's the property of

3023
01:50:19,430 --> 01:50:17,119
being black okay okay so the law of

3024
01:50:21,510 --> 01:50:19,440
nature is not the regularity

3025
01:50:22,790 --> 01:50:21,520
that all ravens are black the law of

3026
01:50:26,550 --> 01:50:22,800
nature is

3027
01:50:28,950 --> 01:50:26,560
that the property of being a raven

3028
01:50:30,950 --> 01:50:28,960
is connected to the property of being

3029
01:50:33,270 --> 01:50:30,960
black

3030
01:50:34,229 --> 01:50:33,280
and that then that that's the law of

3031
01:50:38,070 --> 01:50:34,239
nature

3032
01:50:41,350 --> 01:50:38,080
regularity

3033
01:50:43,510 --> 01:50:41,360
that all ravens are black it's the law

3034
01:50:46,149 --> 01:50:43,520
that explains why the raven is black why

3035
01:50:47,669 --> 01:50:46,159
is why is this raven black

3036
01:50:50,629 --> 01:50:47,679
it's a raven it has the property of

3037
01:50:53,430 --> 01:50:50,639
ravenhood and that necessitates

3038
01:50:54,070 --> 01:50:53,440
the property of blackness okay okay

3039
01:50:57,750 --> 01:50:54,080
that's

3040
01:51:00,709 --> 01:50:57,760
sounds like

3041
01:51:01,270 --> 01:51:00,719
hokey nonsense but the thing is you're

3042
01:51:03,510 --> 01:51:01,280
actually

3043
01:51:04,870 --> 01:51:03,520
um introducing something new in the

3044
01:51:08,629 --> 01:51:04,880
world

3045
01:51:12,229 --> 01:51:08,639
um over and above the mirror regularity

3046
01:51:14,149 --> 01:51:12,239
and that has explanatory power

3047
01:51:15,910 --> 01:51:14,159
okay so the way that i'm thinking about

3048
01:51:17,750 --> 01:51:15,920
this is that there's a set of all black

3049
01:51:18,629 --> 01:51:17,760
objects and then ravens are a subset of

3050
01:51:21,109 --> 01:51:18,639
that

3051
01:51:21,830 --> 01:51:21,119
but i don't see what what's different

3052
01:51:24,790 --> 01:51:21,840
than what

3053
01:51:26,950 --> 01:51:24,800
a human is saying there'll be a property

3054
01:51:29,430 --> 01:51:26,960
a property of ravenhood

3055
01:51:30,149 --> 01:51:29,440
and a property of blackness and it's not

3056
01:51:34,629 --> 01:51:30,159
just

3057
01:51:36,470 --> 01:51:34,639
a coincidence but but there's a kind of

3058
01:51:38,149 --> 01:51:36,480
what's sometimes called a gnomic

3059
01:51:41,189 --> 01:51:38,159
connection

3060
01:51:43,910 --> 01:51:41,199
uh this is like a physical necessity

3061
01:51:44,870 --> 01:51:43,920
uh between the property of ravenhood and

3062
01:51:48,390 --> 01:51:44,880
the property

3063
01:51:50,310 --> 01:51:48,400
of uh blackness there's a

3064
01:51:51,589 --> 01:51:50,320
necessity between the property of

3065
01:51:55,189 --> 01:51:51,599
electron hood

3066
01:51:57,669 --> 01:51:55,199
and negative charge okay

3067
01:51:59,109 --> 01:51:57,679
okay it's not just it's not just a an

3068
01:52:02,310 --> 01:51:59,119
accidental correlation

3069
01:52:04,950 --> 01:52:02,320
there's something deep yeah

3070
01:52:06,790 --> 01:52:04,960
i guess where i'm having trouble is i'm

3071
01:52:07,830 --> 01:52:06,800
for an electron it's like we define it

3072
01:52:09,910 --> 01:52:07,840
as that which has

3073
01:52:11,830 --> 01:52:09,920
this if we found an electron with a with

3074
01:52:13,270 --> 01:52:11,840
negative two instead of negative one

3075
01:52:15,030 --> 01:52:13,280
we wouldn't call it an electron we call

3076
01:52:18,149 --> 01:52:15,040
it something else

3077
01:52:18,550 --> 01:52:18,159
probably that's true um but that but

3078
01:52:26,070 --> 01:52:18,560
that's

3079
01:52:28,149 --> 01:52:26,080
course all of this is fallible

3080
01:52:29,589 --> 01:52:28,159
when i say all ravens are black it's a

3081
01:52:31,910 --> 01:52:29,599
law of nature that rage

3082
01:52:33,430 --> 01:52:31,920
could be mistaken we could we could find

3083
01:52:35,510 --> 01:52:33,440
in madagascar

3084
01:52:37,910 --> 01:52:35,520
you know ravens that are uh green or

3085
01:52:39,990 --> 01:52:37,920
something like that

3086
01:52:41,270 --> 01:52:40,000
but you're saying okay hypothetically so

3087
01:52:42,709 --> 01:52:41,280
i'm trying to i'm trying to understand

3088
01:52:44,629 --> 01:52:42,719
this so hypothetically you're saying

3089
01:52:45,990 --> 01:52:44,639
there that a property of ravenhood is

3090
01:52:48,790 --> 01:52:46,000
that it's black

3091
01:52:49,109 --> 01:52:48,800
okay okay so what does this have to do

3092
01:52:52,310 --> 01:52:49,119
with

3093
01:52:55,830 --> 01:52:52,320
causality

3094
01:52:57,830 --> 01:52:55,840
uh okay so um

3095
01:52:59,990 --> 01:52:57,840
let me let me back up and make and make

3096
01:53:01,830 --> 01:53:00,000
this view of laws of nature a bit more

3097
01:53:05,109 --> 01:53:01,840
plausible

3098
01:53:07,270 --> 01:53:05,119
the hume view so you see hume view it's

3099
01:53:08,310 --> 01:53:07,280
just a regularity that all ravens are

3100
01:53:10,950 --> 01:53:08,320
black

3101
01:53:11,990 --> 01:53:10,960
now let us suppose you're you're doing

3102
01:53:15,030 --> 01:53:12,000
this video from your

3103
01:53:16,870 --> 01:53:15,040
house right or your apartment

3104
01:53:19,669 --> 01:53:16,880
let's suppose that every human being

3105
01:53:23,430 --> 01:53:19,679
who's ever been in that apartment

3106
01:53:27,189 --> 01:53:23,440
has worn socks okay

3107
01:53:29,830 --> 01:53:27,199
yeah so is it a law of nature

3108
01:53:30,470 --> 01:53:29,840
that everyone who enters kurt's

3109
01:53:33,589 --> 01:53:30,480
apartment

3110
01:53:35,270 --> 01:53:33,599
wears socks of nature

3111
01:53:38,390 --> 01:53:35,280
in this house it is it doesn't sound

3112
01:53:40,310 --> 01:53:38,400
like hello nature but it's a regularity

3113
01:53:43,350 --> 01:53:40,320
and that apartment might be blown up

3114
01:53:45,589 --> 01:53:43,360
tomorrow so that in its entire history

3115
01:53:47,990 --> 01:53:45,599
it was always true every time someone

3116
01:53:50,709 --> 01:53:48,000
entered that apartment they wore socks

3117
01:53:51,589 --> 01:53:50,719
see oh that's not a law of nature that's

3118
01:53:53,750 --> 01:53:51,599
just one of those

3119
01:53:55,430 --> 01:53:53,760
accidents how can i distinguish a

3120
01:53:58,390 --> 01:53:55,440
genuine law of nature

3121
01:53:59,669 --> 01:53:58,400
which is irregularity for hume from

3122
01:54:03,109 --> 01:53:59,679
these accidental

3123
01:54:05,750 --> 01:54:03,119
things hume has no answer

3124
01:54:07,750 --> 01:54:05,760
there's no way you can separate the two

3125
01:54:07,990 --> 01:54:07,760
but if you believe that laws of nature

3126
01:54:11,350 --> 01:54:08,000
are

3127
01:54:14,310 --> 01:54:11,360
properties then i would say it's it's

3128
01:54:14,950 --> 01:54:14,320
the law of nature uh about ravens being

3129
01:54:17,430 --> 01:54:14,960
black

3130
01:54:19,189 --> 01:54:17,440
the property of ravenhood necessitates

3131
01:54:22,229 --> 01:54:19,199
the property of blackness

3132
01:54:25,109 --> 01:54:22,239
okay however the property of entering

3133
01:54:26,470 --> 01:54:25,119
kurt's apartment does not necessitate

3134
01:54:28,310 --> 01:54:26,480
the property

3135
01:54:29,750 --> 01:54:28,320
where saw that was just contingent that

3136
01:54:32,310 --> 01:54:29,760
was just that's right

3137
01:54:33,589 --> 01:54:32,320
and so now you know still uh empirical

3138
01:54:35,350 --> 01:54:33,599
science has to discover

3139
01:54:37,430 --> 01:54:35,360
what are the accidental regularities

3140
01:54:40,390 --> 01:54:37,440
versus one or the laws

3141
01:54:42,310 --> 01:54:40,400
that can be really hard but the thing is

3142
01:54:43,910 --> 01:54:42,320
there is a metaphysical difference

3143
01:54:45,750 --> 01:54:43,920
between the two

3144
01:54:47,030 --> 01:54:45,760
and hume hasn't got a metaphysical

3145
01:54:49,270 --> 01:54:47,040
difference between the two

3146
01:54:52,070 --> 01:54:49,280
it's just wow it's just a big

3147
01:54:55,350 --> 01:54:54,229
okay so now what does that have to do

3148
01:54:58,950 --> 01:54:55,360
with

3149
01:55:01,270 --> 01:54:58,960
laws of nature

3150
01:55:02,149 --> 01:55:01,280
so it is the law of nature that a's our

3151
01:55:09,589 --> 01:55:02,159
b's

3152
01:55:11,030 --> 01:55:09,599
yes yeah what i'm curious about what i

3153
01:55:11,830 --> 01:55:11,040
found most fascinating was that it was

3154
01:55:15,109 --> 01:55:11,840
as if you're saying

3155
01:55:17,430 --> 01:55:15,119
e equals m c squared is it's like an

3156
01:55:18,550 --> 01:55:17,440
object itself that comes in and

3157
01:55:21,189 --> 01:55:18,560
influences

3158
01:55:23,350 --> 01:55:21,199
the world yeah yeah um it's hard to

3159
01:55:25,910 --> 01:55:23,360
figure out what

3160
01:55:27,189 --> 01:55:25,920
what the law of nature would be i mean i

3161
01:55:30,310 --> 01:55:27,199
can say it's a law of nature

3162
01:55:33,669 --> 01:55:30,320
e equals mc square um

3163
01:55:35,589 --> 01:55:33,679
it may be hard to figure out uh

3164
01:55:37,830 --> 01:55:35,599
putting it in these metaphysical terms

3165
01:55:40,629 --> 01:55:37,840
the property of energy and how it's

3166
01:55:41,350 --> 01:55:40,639
related to the property of mass and the

3167
01:55:43,830 --> 01:55:41,360
property of

3168
01:55:45,510 --> 01:55:43,840
speed of light and stuff like that but

3169
01:55:47,430 --> 01:55:45,520
they'll

3170
01:55:48,629 --> 01:55:47,440
on this view there would be such a

3171
01:55:54,790 --> 01:55:48,639
relation

3172
01:55:55,589 --> 01:55:54,800
energy as a property and mass as a

3173
01:55:56,950 --> 01:55:55,599
property

3174
01:56:01,430 --> 01:55:56,960
have you heard of lee smullen's

3175
01:56:03,990 --> 01:56:01,440
principle of precedence

3176
01:56:05,750 --> 01:56:04,000
i know him well and i have heard of it

3177
01:56:08,950 --> 01:56:05,760
and i have forgotten what it is

3178
01:56:10,550 --> 01:56:08,960
okay it's it's something like that

3179
01:56:12,229 --> 01:56:10,560
one of the reasons the electron

3180
01:56:14,629 --> 01:56:12,239
collapses in the way that it does

3181
01:56:15,350 --> 01:56:14,639
or that sorry this explains decoherence

3182
01:56:18,390 --> 01:56:15,360
i believe

3183
01:56:19,189 --> 01:56:18,400
that the reason why a large object

3184
01:56:21,750 --> 01:56:19,199
collapses

3185
01:56:22,950 --> 01:56:21,760
is because by chance somewhere else in

3186
01:56:25,189 --> 01:56:22,960
the universe a large

3187
01:56:25,990 --> 01:56:25,199
object has collapsed in a similar manner

3188
01:56:27,750 --> 01:56:26,000
and it's

3189
01:56:29,430 --> 01:56:27,760
felt at some other part of the universe

3190
01:56:30,550 --> 01:56:29,440
the patterns are felt and so they

3191
01:56:32,390 --> 01:56:30,560
collapse similarly

3192
01:56:34,149 --> 01:56:32,400
and that explains some of the

3193
01:56:36,870 --> 01:56:34,159
regularities to use that word

3194
01:56:38,229 --> 01:56:36,880
okay that's the principle um i i don't

3195
01:56:41,830 --> 01:56:38,239
know what to say about that

3196
01:56:43,830 --> 01:56:41,840
um i should i i just gonna i'm just

3197
01:56:45,189 --> 01:56:43,840
gonna have to go and and

3198
01:56:47,430 --> 01:56:45,199
right right right right well what i was

3199
01:56:48,790 --> 01:56:47,440
wondering is i'm curious if that merges

3200
01:56:50,950 --> 01:56:48,800
both platonists

3201
01:56:52,790 --> 01:56:50,960
and non-platonist because it's as if

3202
01:56:53,910 --> 01:56:52,800
it's formulating something that's true

3203
01:56:55,990 --> 01:56:53,920
and putting it into this

3204
01:56:57,270 --> 01:56:56,000
world that we now look to to represent

3205
01:56:59,109 --> 01:56:57,280
reality

3206
01:57:00,870 --> 01:56:59,119
but it was it was being invented at some

3207
01:57:01,270 --> 01:57:00,880
point yeah invention and discovery

3208
01:57:04,390 --> 01:57:01,280
that's

3209
01:57:07,510 --> 01:57:04,400
put it i'm

3210
01:57:08,950 --> 01:57:07,520
inclined to think it's not because as i

3211
01:57:11,990 --> 01:57:08,960
said i know him quite well

3212
01:57:12,950 --> 01:57:12,000
and we argue over the issue of platonism

3213
01:57:16,229 --> 01:57:12,960
all the time

3214
01:57:17,990 --> 01:57:16,239
he's very antiplatenous yeah

3215
01:57:19,669 --> 01:57:18,000
um many are physicists generally

3216
01:57:20,070 --> 01:57:19,679
antiplateauous and mathematicians are

3217
01:57:23,189 --> 01:57:20,080
pro

3218
01:57:26,229 --> 01:57:23,199
no no they're a mixed bag on it

3219
01:57:27,910 --> 01:57:26,239
they're all over the place most most

3220
01:57:29,270 --> 01:57:27,920
working physicists i would say don't

3221
01:57:31,830 --> 01:57:29,280
have strong views

3222
01:57:33,270 --> 01:57:31,840
about the nature of mathematics that for

3223
01:57:35,510 --> 01:57:33,280
them it's a tool

3224
01:57:37,510 --> 01:57:35,520
they use it they just sort of grab it

3225
01:57:39,589 --> 01:57:37,520
out of the tool bag use what they want

3226
01:57:41,350 --> 01:57:39,599
and don't have philosophical views about

3227
01:57:42,709 --> 01:57:41,360
it they if you if they work in

3228
01:57:45,750 --> 01:57:42,719
fundamental physics

3229
01:57:47,510 --> 01:57:45,760
as lee smalling does he has very strong

3230
01:57:48,870 --> 01:57:47,520
philosophical views about the nature of

3231
01:57:51,589 --> 01:57:48,880
physics

3232
01:57:52,070 --> 01:57:51,599
you know is he a realist is he you know

3233
01:57:54,149 --> 01:57:52,080
what

3234
01:57:55,589 --> 01:57:54,159
and so on he's unquestionably a

3235
01:57:56,390 --> 01:57:55,599
scientific realist when it comes to

3236
01:57:58,229 --> 01:57:56,400
physics

3237
01:58:00,709 --> 01:57:58,239
but he's an anti-realist when it comes

3238
01:58:04,070 --> 01:58:00,719
to mathematics interesting

3239
01:58:07,350 --> 01:58:04,080
same with uh carlo rodelli

3240
01:58:11,030 --> 01:58:07,360
who uh uh smolin and rovelli uh

3241
01:58:12,870 --> 01:58:11,040
often work together uh ravelli's

3242
01:58:14,950 --> 01:58:12,880
i've gotten to know rovelli quite well

3243
01:58:17,990 --> 01:58:14,960
because he now lives in london here

3244
01:58:20,149 --> 01:58:18,000
he's my name cool um

3245
01:58:21,270 --> 01:58:20,159
and he's uh he's unquestionably a

3246
01:58:24,709 --> 01:58:21,280
scientific realist

3247
01:58:28,149 --> 01:58:24,719
when it comes to physics um

3248
01:58:31,030 --> 01:58:28,159
but hostile to platonism

3249
01:58:31,990 --> 01:58:31,040
but this is true for both ravelli and

3250
01:58:33,910 --> 01:58:32,000
smolin

3251
01:58:36,070 --> 01:58:33,920
they can't quite put their finger on

3252
01:58:37,910 --> 01:58:36,080
what it is they dislike about platonism

3253
01:58:40,629 --> 01:58:37,920
so much

3254
01:58:41,910 --> 01:58:40,639
so they're not winning the argument yet

3255
01:58:43,589 --> 01:58:41,920
so it's just an

3256
01:58:45,270 --> 01:58:43,599
a feeling that they have but they

3257
01:58:46,790 --> 01:58:45,280
dislike it because it has a mystical

3258
01:58:50,070 --> 01:58:46,800
quality to it

3259
01:58:51,910 --> 01:58:50,080
not sure okay

3260
01:59:01,350 --> 01:58:51,920
jim thank you again so much i appreciate

3261
01:59:05,669 --> 01:59:03,030
do you think we can derive an is from an

3262
01:59:09,030 --> 01:59:05,679
odds or an odd from an is

3263
01:59:12,310 --> 01:59:09,040
that's a really hard question uh

3264
01:59:15,109 --> 01:59:12,320
the simple answer is no

3265
01:59:17,270 --> 01:59:15,119
um because one is an imperative sentence

3266
01:59:19,430 --> 01:59:17,280
and the other's a declarative sentence

3267
01:59:20,629 --> 01:59:19,440
i mean just logically grammatically

3268
01:59:22,870 --> 01:59:20,639
they're they're going to be

3269
01:59:24,870 --> 01:59:22,880
different kinds of things we can come

3270
01:59:32,629 --> 01:59:24,880
close

3271
01:59:34,790 --> 01:59:32,639
let me let me actually back up and talk

3272
01:59:38,550 --> 01:59:34,800
about it in a very indirect way

3273
01:59:40,310 --> 01:59:38,560
okay um there's a traditional view

3274
01:59:42,870 --> 01:59:40,320
that there's a distinction between facts

3275
01:59:45,030 --> 01:59:42,880
and values it's the same thing

3276
01:59:47,910 --> 01:59:45,040
there's just a cleavage between the two

3277
01:59:51,430 --> 01:59:47,920
and science is totally concerned

3278
01:59:54,070 --> 01:59:51,440
with the facts and morality and

3279
01:59:56,870 --> 01:59:54,080
maybe religion and and other things

3280
02:00:00,870 --> 01:59:56,880
could be concerned with values

3281
02:00:04,390 --> 02:00:00,880
the trouble with that view is that um

3282
02:00:07,350 --> 02:00:04,400
too many things in science it's messy

3283
02:00:09,990 --> 02:00:07,360
um there are all kinds of values even in

3284
02:00:13,189 --> 02:00:10,000
just doing science itself

3285
02:00:15,830 --> 02:00:13,199
so for instance i can tell you about how

3286
02:00:18,070 --> 02:00:15,840
to find out an infinitude of facts

3287
02:00:18,950 --> 02:00:18,080
and maybe one of them you might be

3288
02:00:21,990 --> 02:00:18,960
interested in

3289
02:00:23,109 --> 02:00:22,000
so what is the distance between the tip

3290
02:00:26,149 --> 02:00:23,119
of my nose

3291
02:00:27,589 --> 02:00:26,159
and the center of mass of the sun now

3292
02:00:29,189 --> 02:00:27,599
i'm going to move

3293
02:00:31,270 --> 02:00:29,199
no i can ask you about the center of

3294
02:00:31,990 --> 02:00:31,280
mass of your nose and the center of mass

3295
02:00:33,910 --> 02:00:32,000
of that guy

3296
02:00:35,510 --> 02:00:33,920
on the street from his nose to the

3297
02:00:37,830 --> 02:00:35,520
center of mass of the moon

3298
02:00:39,030 --> 02:00:37,840
you could measure all of those things

3299
02:00:40,790 --> 02:00:39,040
and they would all be

3300
02:00:42,229 --> 02:00:40,800
factually correct if you measured

3301
02:00:45,350 --> 02:00:42,239
correctly

3302
02:00:47,430 --> 02:00:45,360
but after one or two of these you

3303
02:00:48,390 --> 02:00:47,440
that's enough and you're going to make a

3304
02:00:50,310 --> 02:00:48,400
value choice

3305
02:00:51,430 --> 02:00:50,320
that pursuing more of these is not

3306
02:00:52,709 --> 02:00:51,440
worthwhile

3307
02:00:55,189 --> 02:00:52,719
and that there are other things that are

3308
02:00:56,149 --> 02:00:55,199
more valuable so all facts aren't on a

3309
02:00:59,270 --> 02:00:56,159
par

3310
02:01:01,510 --> 02:00:59,280
some are clearly better than others

3311
02:01:03,430 --> 02:01:01,520
and and you as a scientist are going to

3312
02:01:04,390 --> 02:01:03,440
make these kinds of value judgments all

3313
02:01:05,990 --> 02:01:04,400
the time

3314
02:01:07,589 --> 02:01:06,000
and you're going to make methodological

3315
02:01:08,550 --> 02:01:07,599
value judgments which are even more

3316
02:01:10,310 --> 02:01:08,560
important

3317
02:01:11,669 --> 02:01:10,320
like you're going to say okay i've got

3318
02:01:14,470 --> 02:01:11,679
two theories here which one

3319
02:01:16,470 --> 02:01:14,480
should i believe oh this one's simpler

3320
02:01:19,030 --> 02:01:16,480
well that's actually a value judgment

3321
02:01:19,990 --> 02:01:19,040
that simplicity is to be preferred to

3322
02:01:21,510 --> 02:01:20,000
complexity

3323
02:01:23,510 --> 02:01:21,520
when you're talking about scientific

3324
02:01:25,030 --> 02:01:23,520
theories so right away

3325
02:01:26,470 --> 02:01:25,040
so all right so we've got these two

3326
02:01:27,510 --> 02:01:26,480
theories i choose this one on the basis

3327
02:01:30,149 --> 02:01:27,520
of simplicity

3328
02:01:31,430 --> 02:01:30,159
and now now i say oh well the facts

3329
02:01:33,109 --> 02:01:31,440
according to this theory

3330
02:01:35,270 --> 02:01:33,119
are different than the facts according

3331
02:01:37,750 --> 02:01:35,280
to that theory what are the facts

3332
02:01:40,149 --> 02:01:37,760
well i've just decided on this theory so

3333
02:01:42,790 --> 02:01:40,159
now i found out what the facts are

3334
02:01:43,350 --> 02:01:42,800
but it is it is value-laden in the sense

3335
02:01:46,070 --> 02:01:43,360
that i've

3336
02:01:47,270 --> 02:01:46,080
chosen this theory on the basis of its

3337
02:01:50,550 --> 02:01:47,280
simplicity

3338
02:01:53,910 --> 02:01:50,560
so you see how the values begin to

3339
02:01:56,390 --> 02:01:53,920
to to infect the um the facts

3340
02:01:58,310 --> 02:01:56,400
themselves and once you get into fairly

3341
02:02:00,229 --> 02:01:58,320
sophisticated science

3342
02:02:02,149 --> 02:02:00,239
and met and you're making methodological

3343
02:02:04,390 --> 02:02:02,159
choices about how to pursue

3344
02:02:05,990 --> 02:02:04,400
this you'll find that there's all kinds

3345
02:02:08,550 --> 02:02:06,000
of values that are getting

3346
02:02:10,070 --> 02:02:08,560
tied up in there and it's very very hard

3347
02:02:12,790 --> 02:02:10,080
to disentangle them

3348
02:02:14,629 --> 02:02:12,800
so in essence no it's not possible to

3349
02:02:17,750 --> 02:02:14,639
derive an art from an is

3350
02:02:20,470 --> 02:02:17,760
that's right you can't on the other hand

3351
02:02:21,510 --> 02:02:20,480
the more important question is can you

3352
02:02:24,629 --> 02:02:21,520
disentangle

3353
02:02:26,310 --> 02:02:24,639
your oughts from your is-is and the

3354
02:02:29,109 --> 02:02:26,320
answer to that question is i think

3355
02:02:30,950 --> 02:02:29,119
no and so now making a big fuss about

3356
02:02:34,310 --> 02:02:30,960
the distinction between israel

3357
02:02:35,990 --> 02:02:34,320
is probably a bad idea so when you're

3358
02:02:39,109 --> 02:02:36,000
looking at another scientist

3359
02:02:41,270 --> 02:02:39,119
don't ask just give me the facts

3360
02:02:42,709 --> 02:02:41,280
because a good scientist wouldn't be

3361
02:02:44,470 --> 02:02:42,719
able to

3362
02:02:45,990 --> 02:02:44,480
who had a sophisticated view of this

3363
02:02:48,709 --> 02:02:46,000
issue would not be able to tell

3364
02:02:49,270 --> 02:02:48,719
you what are the clear facts and how

3365
02:02:52,470 --> 02:02:49,280
much

3366
02:02:53,270 --> 02:02:52,480
the facts as presented in fact depended

3367
02:02:56,709 --> 02:02:53,280
upon

3368
02:02:58,550 --> 02:02:56,719
value decisions made along the history

3369
02:03:00,950 --> 02:02:58,560
the whole history of science

3370
02:03:01,589 --> 02:03:00,960
up to that point now that doesn't mean

3371
02:03:05,669 --> 02:03:01,599
you can

3372
02:03:08,310 --> 02:03:05,679
just say well i'm a racist

3373
02:03:10,310 --> 02:03:08,320
i'm proud of my values and i'm gonna and

3374
02:03:11,589 --> 02:03:10,320
i'm gonna let that guide my research you

3375
02:03:13,189 --> 02:03:11,599
know from here on in

3376
02:03:15,109 --> 02:03:13,199
you can't get away with that stuff

3377
02:03:17,270 --> 02:03:15,119
though lots of people try

3378
02:03:19,430 --> 02:03:17,280
but i do mean that there's going to be a

3379
02:03:21,030 --> 02:03:19,440
lot of values that you're not even aware

3380
02:03:24,229 --> 02:03:21,040
of

3381
02:03:26,149 --> 02:03:24,239
and they have um they have been

3382
02:03:27,109 --> 02:03:26,159
sprinkled through the entire history of

3383
02:03:29,109 --> 02:03:27,119
science

3384
02:03:30,629 --> 02:03:29,119
up until the present day and it'll

3385
02:03:32,149 --> 02:03:30,639
continue to be like that

3386
02:03:33,669 --> 02:03:32,159
what's your problem with sam harris you

3387
02:03:34,550 --> 02:03:33,679
said that you have he's a militant

3388
02:03:39,830 --> 02:03:34,560
atheist

3389
02:03:41,109 --> 02:03:39,840
have no trouble with sam harris on that

3390
02:03:43,430 --> 02:03:41,119
front

3391
02:03:45,189 --> 02:03:43,440
the only thing i dislike about sam

3392
02:03:46,470 --> 02:03:45,199
harris and oh by the way he was the

3393
02:03:49,189 --> 02:03:46,480
voice of reason

3394
02:03:50,390 --> 02:03:49,199
uh in his uh discussion with jordan

3395
02:03:51,510 --> 02:03:50,400
peterson

3396
02:03:53,510 --> 02:03:51,520
so you agreed with them there oh

3397
02:03:55,189 --> 02:03:53,520
completely yeah yeah

3398
02:03:57,430 --> 02:03:55,199
much more than i was expecting because

3399
02:03:59,270 --> 02:03:57,440
i've seen sam harris before and

3400
02:04:01,189 --> 02:03:59,280
he sort of irritates me you don't like

3401
02:04:03,669 --> 02:04:01,199
his views on something

3402
02:04:04,470 --> 02:04:03,679
well you see there's a lot of militant

3403
02:04:06,790 --> 02:04:04,480
atheists

3404
02:04:08,069 --> 02:04:06,800
and often they're condemned as a group

3405
02:04:11,350 --> 02:04:08,079
hitchins

3406
02:04:14,550 --> 02:04:11,360
dawkins you know and harris dennett

3407
02:04:16,629 --> 02:04:14,560
and uh and sam harris um but

3408
02:04:17,830 --> 02:04:16,639
harris harris worries me unlike the

3409
02:04:19,910 --> 02:04:17,840
others um

3410
02:04:21,350 --> 02:04:19,920
and the thing that worries me is that he

3411
02:04:24,550 --> 02:04:21,360
has a special

3412
02:04:25,589 --> 02:04:24,560
hatred for muslims i don't i think

3413
02:04:28,069 --> 02:04:25,599
muslims have

3414
02:04:29,589 --> 02:04:28,079
ridiculous religious views just like

3415
02:04:31,750 --> 02:04:29,599
christians have ridiculous

3416
02:04:32,709 --> 02:04:31,760
religious views as do hindus and

3417
02:04:35,910 --> 02:04:32,719
buddhists and so on

3418
02:04:39,270 --> 02:04:35,920
they're all just ridiculous but

3419
02:04:41,830 --> 02:04:39,280
but i think in especially in this age

3420
02:04:43,030 --> 02:04:41,840
in the current conditions to to for

3421
02:04:45,990 --> 02:04:43,040
anyone to pick on

3422
02:04:47,109 --> 02:04:46,000
muslims uh especially in the united

3423
02:04:50,310 --> 02:04:47,119
states

3424
02:04:52,390 --> 02:04:50,320
it's um it's bordering on you know a

3425
02:04:55,430 --> 02:04:52,400
kind of

3426
02:04:56,950 --> 02:04:55,440
um a real bigotry that uh is

3427
02:04:58,470 --> 02:04:56,960
is worse than unhealthy what if you're

3428
02:05:00,229 --> 02:04:58,480
just criticizing islam and not the

3429
02:05:03,830 --> 02:05:00,239
muslim people themselves

3430
02:05:04,470 --> 02:05:03,840
uh this is tricky um you can criticize

3431
02:05:09,270 --> 02:05:04,480
islam

3432
02:05:11,109 --> 02:05:09,280
the belief held by people so

3433
02:05:12,390 --> 02:05:11,119
you can't criticize islam without

3434
02:05:14,950 --> 02:05:12,400
criticizing

3435
02:05:16,390 --> 02:05:14,960
um people who are or muslim maybe that's

3436
02:05:18,790 --> 02:05:16,400
one of the problems is that

3437
02:05:19,510 --> 02:05:18,800
intellectuals like yourself like i we

3438
02:05:21,669 --> 02:05:19,520
like to debate

3439
02:05:22,870 --> 02:05:21,679
ideas and it's difficult to detach our

3440
02:05:25,430 --> 02:05:22,880
eagles from the ideas

3441
02:05:27,270 --> 02:05:25,440
but we know that okay when a better idea

3442
02:05:28,790 --> 02:05:27,280
comes along we adopt that and we

3443
02:05:30,709 --> 02:05:28,800
take a little hit to the ego but we're

3444
02:05:33,030 --> 02:05:30,719
different than our ideas

3445
02:05:34,629 --> 02:05:33,040
so there is a separation between the

3446
02:05:37,830 --> 02:05:34,639
people and then the

3447
02:05:39,350 --> 02:05:37,840
uh sure sure uh and i have no no trouble

3448
02:05:42,550 --> 02:05:39,360
with that the trouble is

3449
02:05:44,790 --> 02:05:42,560
when you're talking to an in a mass

3450
02:05:47,830 --> 02:05:44,800
media and talking to a mass audience

3451
02:05:49,510 --> 02:05:47,840
and you start railing against islam it

3452
02:05:52,390 --> 02:05:49,520
just spills over

3453
02:05:53,750 --> 02:05:52,400
to a dislike of that guy who's sitting

3454
02:05:57,510 --> 02:05:53,760
next to you who happens

3455
02:06:00,629 --> 02:05:57,520
to be a muslim yeah so i don't trust him

3456
02:06:01,910 --> 02:06:00,639
um i so i just want to make sure i

3457
02:06:03,350 --> 02:06:01,920
understand it so something like when you

3458
02:06:06,390 --> 02:06:03,360
criticize islam

3459
02:06:07,830 --> 02:06:06,400
it's easily construed as criticizing

3460
02:06:09,350 --> 02:06:07,840
muslim people and then the effects of

3461
02:06:10,790 --> 02:06:09,360
you criticizing islam is

3462
02:06:12,470 --> 02:06:10,800
that other people are going to look at

3463
02:06:13,750 --> 02:06:12,480
muslim people with a negative light

3464
02:06:16,310 --> 02:06:13,760
that's right

3465
02:06:17,830 --> 02:06:16,320
yeah i mean i don't like islam any more

3466
02:06:19,910 --> 02:06:17,840
than i like christianity

3467
02:06:21,270 --> 02:06:19,920
but if i had a company and i'm going to

3468
02:06:22,870 --> 02:06:21,280
hire people i'm not going to

3469
02:06:24,229 --> 02:06:22,880
discriminate against muslims

3470
02:06:25,990 --> 02:06:24,239
i wouldn't hire a christian over a

3471
02:06:28,149 --> 02:06:26,000
muslim right that seems to me to be just

3472
02:06:30,229 --> 02:06:28,159
grotesque bigotry i would hire an

3473
02:06:33,189 --> 02:06:30,239
atheist over anybody

3474
02:06:34,629 --> 02:06:33,199
but when it comes to religions i i think

3475
02:06:35,990 --> 02:06:34,639
if you're going to criticize them

3476
02:06:37,430 --> 02:06:36,000
you criticize them all religions are

3477
02:06:37,990 --> 02:06:37,440
equal in that they're all equally

3478
02:06:41,109 --> 02:06:38,000
equally

3479
02:06:41,430 --> 02:06:41,119
uh groundless and yeah i think they've

3480
02:06:42,629 --> 02:06:41,440
done

3481
02:06:44,629 --> 02:06:42,639
i think religion is one of the worst

3482
02:06:47,430 --> 02:06:44,639
things that's ever happened to us

3483
02:06:48,629 --> 02:06:47,440
humanity yeah done a great deal of harm

3484
02:06:52,229 --> 02:06:48,639
let's get to platonism

3485
02:06:54,390 --> 02:06:52,239
your domain this is what you are

3486
02:06:56,310 --> 02:06:54,400
so let's explain what platonism is and

3487
02:06:57,910 --> 02:06:56,320
then let's give people a test so that

3488
02:07:00,069 --> 02:06:57,920
they can find out if they're platonist

3489
02:07:03,189 --> 02:07:00,079
or not

3490
02:07:06,310 --> 02:07:03,199
all right well when i uh when i teach

3491
02:07:08,470 --> 02:07:06,320
topics related to this i usually ask my

3492
02:07:09,350 --> 02:07:08,480
my students on the very f at the very

3493
02:07:10,830 --> 02:07:09,360
beginning

3494
02:07:12,390 --> 02:07:10,840
whether they think mathematics is

3495
02:07:16,629 --> 02:07:12,400
discovered

3496
02:07:20,550 --> 02:07:16,639
physics

3497
02:07:22,629 --> 02:07:20,560
or is it invented like the game of chess

3498
02:07:23,830 --> 02:07:22,639
and i'll get very mixed reactions what

3499
02:07:26,870 --> 02:07:23,840
is it 50 50

3500
02:07:28,790 --> 02:07:26,880
no i'd say more on the discovery side

3501
02:07:30,229 --> 02:07:28,800
but a very sizable number on the

3502
02:07:30,790 --> 02:07:30,239
invention side let's say two-thirds

3503
02:07:33,910 --> 02:07:30,800
one-third

3504
02:07:35,750 --> 02:07:33,920
something like that and

3505
02:07:37,030 --> 02:07:35,760
and then i tell them things that often

3506
02:07:39,109 --> 02:07:37,040
surprise them

3507
02:07:40,629 --> 02:07:39,119
and that is that working mathematicians

3508
02:07:44,229 --> 02:07:40,639
are overwhelmingly

3509
02:07:46,629 --> 02:07:44,239
platonous that is a platonist is

3510
02:07:49,510 --> 02:07:46,639
very briefly believes that mathematics

3511
02:07:52,709 --> 02:07:49,520
is there waiting to be discovered

3512
02:07:53,830 --> 02:07:52,719
it's independent from us mathematical

3513
02:07:56,870 --> 02:07:53,840
facts

3514
02:07:58,470 --> 02:07:56,880
would be true even if no one ever

3515
02:08:00,069 --> 02:07:58,480
discovered them even if there were no

3516
02:08:02,390 --> 02:08:00,079
intelligent creatures

3517
02:08:04,950 --> 02:08:02,400
in the entire history of the universe pi

3518
02:08:06,629 --> 02:08:04,960
would still be an irrational number

3519
02:08:08,069 --> 02:08:06,639
um on the other hand chess would not

3520
02:08:08,870 --> 02:08:08,079
exist if there were no intelligent

3521
02:08:12,550 --> 02:08:08,880
beings

3522
02:08:14,790 --> 02:08:12,560
okay most working mathematicians now you

3523
02:08:16,790 --> 02:08:14,800
you were a math student so you may have

3524
02:08:18,709 --> 02:08:16,800
picked this up from your teachers

3525
02:08:20,709 --> 02:08:18,719
most working mathematicians are in fact

3526
02:08:22,470 --> 02:08:20,719
platonous they believe that

3527
02:08:24,149 --> 02:08:22,480
when they do mathematical research

3528
02:08:24,709 --> 02:08:24,159
they're investigating something that's

3529
02:08:26,629 --> 02:08:24,719
there

3530
02:08:27,750 --> 02:08:26,639
waiting to be discovered and if they get

3531
02:08:32,069 --> 02:08:27,760
it right

3532
02:08:35,189 --> 02:08:34,390
okay so that's that's a that's platonism

3533
02:08:37,109 --> 02:08:35,199
in a nutshell

3534
02:08:38,790 --> 02:08:37,119
and you're a platonist i am a plague so

3535
02:08:40,310 --> 02:08:38,800
what does it mean to exist

3536
02:08:41,750 --> 02:08:40,320
what does that mean because i actually

3537
02:08:42,870 --> 02:08:41,760
consider myself to be a plaintiff i

3538
02:08:43,189 --> 02:08:42,880
would actually think that the game of

3539
02:08:45,030 --> 02:08:43,199
chess

3540
02:08:47,189 --> 02:08:45,040
does exist in some form in the fact in

3541
02:08:48,709 --> 02:08:47,199
in the sense that there are these rules

3542
02:08:50,390 --> 02:08:48,719
and game theoretically you can construct

3543
02:08:52,149 --> 02:08:50,400
a model of chess and so that

3544
02:08:53,910 --> 02:08:52,159
you can if you can form a mathematical

3545
02:08:57,030 --> 02:08:53,920
model of it then it exists

3546
02:08:58,709 --> 02:08:57,040
you're right you're right uh so my

3547
02:09:02,870 --> 02:08:58,719
example

3548
02:09:06,149 --> 02:09:02,880
for

3549
02:09:06,709 --> 02:09:06,159
extrapolate it and say that everything

3550
02:09:09,910 --> 02:09:06,719
that

3551
02:09:13,430 --> 02:09:09,920
possibly is logical exists

3552
02:09:15,669 --> 02:09:13,440
well there is a view um about possible

3553
02:09:18,950 --> 02:09:15,679
worlds

3554
02:09:22,790 --> 02:09:18,960
okay so um whenever we speak

3555
02:09:25,589 --> 02:09:22,800
in a certain mode like i say

3556
02:09:27,669 --> 02:09:25,599
there are no elephants in this room but

3557
02:09:29,350 --> 02:09:27,679
it is possible that there is an elephant

3558
02:09:31,830 --> 02:09:29,360
in this room it's not actual

3559
02:09:33,669 --> 02:09:31,840
but it is possible what does that mean

3560
02:09:36,229 --> 02:09:33,679
right now

3561
02:09:37,030 --> 02:09:36,239
what does that even mean well one view

3562
02:09:39,350 --> 02:09:37,040
says

3563
02:09:41,030 --> 02:09:39,360
you have to understand reality as made

3564
02:09:43,750 --> 02:09:41,040
up of possible worlds

3565
02:09:44,870 --> 02:09:43,760
the actual world is one world and

3566
02:09:48,550 --> 02:09:44,880
another world

3567
02:09:50,390 --> 02:09:48,560
exactly like this one

3568
02:09:52,069 --> 02:09:50,400
there's a counterpart i'm in it

3569
02:09:54,069 --> 02:09:52,079
multiverse theory of quantum mechanics

3570
02:09:55,990 --> 02:09:54,079
yeah completely different yeah yeah this

3571
02:09:57,030 --> 02:09:56,000
is a this is a logical thing not a

3572
02:09:59,109 --> 02:09:57,040
physics thing

3573
02:10:00,390 --> 02:09:59,119
um so there's another possible world

3574
02:10:02,069 --> 02:10:00,400
that's exactly like this one

3575
02:10:03,510 --> 02:10:02,079
except there's an elephant over there in

3576
02:10:05,350 --> 02:10:03,520
the corner okay

3577
02:10:06,790 --> 02:10:05,360
otherwise they're exactly the same that

3578
02:10:10,069 --> 02:10:06,800
is a possible world

3579
02:10:12,069 --> 02:10:10,079
and when i and for me to say

3580
02:10:13,430 --> 02:10:12,079
it is possible that there is an elephant

3581
02:10:16,149 --> 02:10:13,440
in this room

3582
02:10:17,669 --> 02:10:16,159
that is a true sentence because there

3583
02:10:20,069 --> 02:10:17,679
exists a possible world

3584
02:10:21,430 --> 02:10:20,079
with an elephant in it yeah okay can we

3585
02:10:23,189 --> 02:10:21,440
not extrapolate that to god

3586
02:10:24,790 --> 02:10:23,199
that it's true that god exists that's

3587
02:10:26,709 --> 02:10:24,800
really an interesting question and it's

3588
02:10:29,189 --> 02:10:26,719
actually debated

3589
02:10:30,870 --> 02:10:29,199
because it sounds like well maybe

3590
02:10:32,790 --> 02:10:30,880
atheism is true in this world

3591
02:10:34,550 --> 02:10:32,800
but maybe there's another world and

3592
02:10:37,589 --> 02:10:34,560
which there is a god

3593
02:10:37,910 --> 02:10:37,599
that's going to be problematic uh but

3594
02:10:40,950 --> 02:10:37,920
it's

3595
02:10:42,629 --> 02:10:40,960
logically terrible

3596
02:10:44,069 --> 02:10:42,639
at least there's it's not clear it's not

3597
02:10:45,350 --> 02:10:44,079
clear that it's logically tenable and

3598
02:10:46,629 --> 02:10:45,360
that's why it's controversial

3599
02:10:48,550 --> 02:10:46,639
because intuitively it seems like it

3600
02:10:49,109 --> 02:10:48,560
ought to be yeah if an elephant can be

3601
02:10:50,870 --> 02:10:49,119
here

3602
02:10:52,149 --> 02:10:50,880
then why can't we make an abstract

3603
02:10:53,830 --> 02:10:52,159
notion of something yeah there could

3604
02:10:57,109 --> 02:10:53,840
have been a god there just isn't

3605
02:10:58,390 --> 02:10:57,119
okay that sounds sensible but if there

3606
02:11:00,149 --> 02:10:58,400
could have been a god

3607
02:11:01,430 --> 02:11:00,159
then there will be a god in a possible

3608
02:11:03,510 --> 02:11:01,440
world

3609
02:11:04,790 --> 02:11:03,520
the trouble with that is the way we

3610
02:11:07,589 --> 02:11:04,800
conceptualize god

3611
02:11:08,470 --> 02:11:07,599
is god is a necessary being and that

3612
02:11:11,990 --> 02:11:08,480
means if god

3613
02:11:13,510 --> 02:11:12,000
exists at all god must exist in every

3614
02:11:15,910 --> 02:11:13,520
possible world

3615
02:11:18,069 --> 02:11:15,920
it's a kind of all or nothing entity

3616
02:11:20,149 --> 02:11:18,079
because of the way

3617
02:11:21,910 --> 02:11:20,159
because omnipresence the presence of god

3618
02:11:23,109 --> 02:11:21,920
not just omnipresent but i mean in every

3619
02:11:25,669 --> 02:11:23,119
world

3620
02:11:27,109 --> 02:11:25,679
whether there is a god or not it's not

3621
02:11:29,109 --> 02:11:27,119
an option

3622
02:11:31,350 --> 02:11:29,119
it's either in no world or in every

3623
02:11:34,629 --> 02:11:31,360
world mathematics is like this

3624
02:11:34,950 --> 02:11:34,639
see if pi is an irrational number then

3625
02:11:36,470 --> 02:11:34,960
pi

3626
02:11:37,990 --> 02:11:36,480
is an irrational number in every

3627
02:11:40,550 --> 02:11:38,000
possible world there's no world in which

3628
02:11:41,830 --> 02:11:40,560
it's equal to three and a quarter or

3629
02:11:44,709 --> 02:11:41,840
something like that

3630
02:11:45,990 --> 02:11:44,719
okay it's always irrational and it's the

3631
02:11:48,390 --> 02:11:46,000
same with god

3632
02:11:49,830 --> 02:11:48,400
uh either god just can't exist it's

3633
02:11:50,390 --> 02:11:49,840
impossible it's like a contradiction

3634
02:11:52,149 --> 02:11:50,400
wait

3635
02:11:54,069 --> 02:11:52,159
how's that how's that commensurate with

3636
02:11:54,390 --> 02:11:54,079
the elephant though because to me if you

3637
02:11:56,470 --> 02:11:54,400
can

3638
02:11:58,470 --> 02:11:56,480
construct an elephant in another world

3639
02:12:00,069 --> 02:11:58,480
how do you know that that elephant

3640
02:12:02,229 --> 02:12:00,079
being true now we have to get to some

3641
02:12:05,270 --> 02:12:02,239
physics but how do you know

3642
02:12:08,149 --> 02:12:05,280
that that elephant can logically exist

3643
02:12:10,069 --> 02:12:08,159
just like logically pi is irrational

3644
02:12:11,430 --> 02:12:10,079
okay what we can prove that pi is

3645
02:12:12,790 --> 02:12:11,440
irrational now we're saying there's an

3646
02:12:14,069 --> 02:12:12,800
elephant in this room

3647
02:12:15,189 --> 02:12:14,079
and we're saying that that's possible

3648
02:12:16,709 --> 02:12:15,199
how do we know that's possible how do we

3649
02:12:19,109 --> 02:12:16,719
know that's a possibility just like

3650
02:12:20,390 --> 02:12:19,119
we know for sure pi is irrational um

3651
02:12:23,830 --> 02:12:20,400
okay uh

3652
02:12:26,229 --> 02:12:23,840
fair enough prima facie it's possible

3653
02:12:27,910 --> 02:12:26,239
like you can't think of any principled

3654
02:12:29,350 --> 02:12:27,920
objection to there being an elephant in

3655
02:12:31,990 --> 02:12:29,360
this room

3656
02:12:32,550 --> 02:12:32,000
you say well how did it get here you

3657
02:12:34,709 --> 02:12:32,560
know uh

3658
02:12:35,990 --> 02:12:34,719
answer they it's a small elephant they

3659
02:12:37,350 --> 02:12:36,000
brought it up in the elevator

3660
02:12:39,510 --> 02:12:37,360
walked it over here and it's been

3661
02:12:41,430 --> 02:12:39,520
sitting here since we started talking

3662
02:12:43,030 --> 02:12:41,440
you can easily imagine a scenario in

3663
02:12:46,149 --> 02:12:43,040
which you know something like that

3664
02:12:47,750 --> 02:12:46,159
is is the case so

3665
02:12:49,510 --> 02:12:47,760
the possibility of an elephant in this

3666
02:12:52,470 --> 02:12:49,520
room

3667
02:12:53,830 --> 02:12:52,480
is is a pretty clear case of of a

3668
02:12:57,350 --> 02:12:53,840
possibility

3669
02:12:57,830 --> 02:12:57,360
um but the god the the god one that's

3670
02:13:00,390 --> 02:12:57,840
our

3671
02:13:02,229 --> 02:13:00,400
that's a really hard not to crack

3672
02:13:04,069 --> 02:13:02,239
because it seems like god

3673
02:13:05,350 --> 02:13:04,079
because remember god is defined in a

3674
02:13:07,669 --> 02:13:05,360
certain way

3675
02:13:09,589 --> 02:13:07,679
in fact some people even define god as

3676
02:13:11,350 --> 02:13:09,599
the necessary being

3677
02:13:13,430 --> 02:13:11,360
and then anything that's necessary must

3678
02:13:17,589 --> 02:13:13,440
be true in every possible world this is

3679
02:13:22,069 --> 02:13:17,599
standard logic talk about possibility

3680
02:13:24,709 --> 02:13:22,079
um and god would have the same status as

3681
02:13:26,149 --> 02:13:24,719
2 plus 2 equals 4. if it's true anywhere

3682
02:13:29,189 --> 02:13:26,159
it's true everywhere

3683
02:13:30,790 --> 02:13:29,199
2 plus 2 equals 5. if it's false

3684
02:13:33,830 --> 02:13:30,800
anywhere it's false

3685
02:13:34,310 --> 02:13:33,840
everywhere okay and uh so god is either

3686
02:13:37,109 --> 02:13:34,320
like

3687
02:13:38,870 --> 02:13:37,119
one or the other i'm come down on the

3688
02:13:41,189 --> 02:13:38,880
side that god's like

3689
02:13:42,550 --> 02:13:41,199
a contradiction and absurdity well that

3690
02:13:44,229 --> 02:13:42,560
only disproves the

3691
02:13:45,990 --> 02:13:44,239
christian notion of god so what about

3692
02:13:47,669 --> 02:13:46,000
these hindu notions of god or others oh

3693
02:13:49,270 --> 02:13:47,679
yeah that's fine yeah so then they could

3694
02:13:51,990 --> 02:13:49,280
exist they could exist

3695
02:13:52,790 --> 02:13:52,000
yeah you're against an omnipresent

3696
02:13:55,430 --> 02:13:52,800
necessary

3697
02:13:57,430 --> 02:13:55,440
don't say omnipresent say uh um

3698
02:13:58,870 --> 02:13:57,440
omnipresent just means god is everywhere

3699
02:14:01,589 --> 02:13:58,880
in space

3700
02:14:01,910 --> 02:14:01,599
that's that's unchristian and unmuslim

3701
02:14:04,390 --> 02:14:01,920
um

3702
02:14:05,990 --> 02:14:04,400
the standard view is god is external

3703
02:14:09,750 --> 02:14:06,000
outside of space and time

3704
02:14:12,629 --> 02:14:09,760
and and can observe us cognizes us

3705
02:14:14,310 --> 02:14:12,639
but isn't in here participating okay

3706
02:14:14,870 --> 02:14:14,320
might intervene for a miracle here and

3707
02:14:17,270 --> 02:14:14,880
there

3708
02:14:18,870 --> 02:14:17,280
but the idea that god is one of us like

3709
02:14:20,629 --> 02:14:18,880
that song god is one of us just a

3710
02:14:23,510 --> 02:14:20,639
stranger on the bus and so on

3711
02:14:24,709 --> 02:14:23,520
that's that's heresy for christians

3712
02:14:26,149 --> 02:14:24,719
wouldn't christians say that you're made

3713
02:14:27,990 --> 02:14:26,159
in the image of god there's a little bit

3714
02:14:29,750 --> 02:14:28,000
of god in you and every time you act

3715
02:14:32,069 --> 02:14:29,760
god is almost acting through you when

3716
02:14:33,350 --> 02:14:32,079
you make a decision it's like you're

3717
02:14:35,109 --> 02:14:33,360
a consciousness that's gonna they're

3718
02:14:36,950 --> 02:14:35,119
they're gonna take that as a metaphor

3719
02:14:38,950 --> 02:14:36,960
i'm just debating what if it's not what

3720
02:14:40,229 --> 02:14:38,960
if that is the christian notion of god

3721
02:14:42,149 --> 02:14:40,239
that actually there's a little spark

3722
02:14:44,550 --> 02:14:42,159
there is an external god but also he's

3723
02:14:46,709 --> 02:14:44,560
in you as well

3724
02:14:48,149 --> 02:14:46,719
okay could that exist in these possible

3725
02:14:48,709 --> 02:14:48,159
worlds is that commensurate with the

3726
02:14:50,390 --> 02:14:48,719
idea of

3727
02:14:52,629 --> 02:14:50,400
not not if it's not if it's part and

3728
02:14:54,709 --> 02:14:52,639
parcel of a certain kind of god who

3729
02:14:55,750 --> 02:14:54,719
can't exist in principle but a lesser

3730
02:14:57,669 --> 02:14:55,760
god

3731
02:15:00,229 --> 02:14:57,679
uh i mean look you know the difference

3732
02:15:03,189 --> 02:15:00,239
between deism and theism

3733
02:15:04,470 --> 02:15:03,199
uh theism is like standard religion

3734
02:15:08,390 --> 02:15:04,480
organized religion

3735
02:15:11,109 --> 02:15:08,400
uh god is uh god cares about you

3736
02:15:11,910 --> 02:15:11,119
okay god is a person and it's a personal

3737
02:15:15,669 --> 02:15:11,920
god

3738
02:15:16,390 --> 02:15:15,679
answer your prayers you know all that

3739
02:15:19,270 --> 02:15:16,400
sort of stuff

3740
02:15:20,950 --> 02:15:19,280
that's that's a theistic view a deistic

3741
02:15:22,870 --> 02:15:20,960
view of god just says

3742
02:15:24,550 --> 02:15:22,880
there is a kind of supernatural creator

3743
02:15:27,270 --> 02:15:24,560
of all of this

3744
02:15:29,750 --> 02:15:27,280
but he doesn't give a damn about us

3745
02:15:31,750 --> 02:15:29,760
maybe he died after he created it

3746
02:15:33,189 --> 02:15:31,760
maybe even he's a committee you know

3747
02:15:34,790 --> 02:15:33,199
maybe there's 27 of them

3748
02:15:37,510 --> 02:15:34,800
and they fought over the details and

3749
02:15:39,510 --> 02:15:37,520
that's why a lot goes wrong

3750
02:15:41,030 --> 02:15:39,520
and it doesn't intervene set things up

3751
02:15:44,390 --> 02:15:41,040
to just run like a

3752
02:15:47,990 --> 02:15:44,400
a magnificent clock that's that's a

3753
02:15:51,030 --> 02:15:48,000
deism yeah okay so 18th century

3754
02:15:52,629 --> 02:15:51,040
uh would-be atheists were often dias

3755
02:15:54,310 --> 02:15:52,639
and that's because darwin hadn't come

3756
02:15:55,030 --> 02:15:54,320
along yet and they they couldn't make

3757
02:15:57,589 --> 02:15:55,040
sense of

3758
02:15:58,870 --> 02:15:57,599
design in nature and they thought you

3759
02:16:00,790 --> 02:15:58,880
have to have an intelligent

3760
02:16:02,229 --> 02:16:00,800
designer for this they couldn't escape

3761
02:16:03,750 --> 02:16:02,239
that they certainly didn't believe a

3762
02:16:05,910 --> 02:16:03,760
word of christianity

3763
02:16:08,310 --> 02:16:05,920
but they did believe in some kind of

3764
02:16:09,990 --> 02:16:08,320
intelligent creator of all of this

3765
02:16:11,510 --> 02:16:10,000
and that's a very common view in the

3766
02:16:13,430 --> 02:16:11,520
enlightenment the american

3767
02:16:15,030 --> 02:16:13,440
founding fathers you know like jefferson

3768
02:16:17,750 --> 02:16:15,040
[Music]

3769
02:16:19,510 --> 02:16:17,760
franklin washington they were deists

3770
02:16:20,950 --> 02:16:19,520
they weren't christians

3771
02:16:23,109 --> 02:16:20,960
americans don't even know their own

3772
02:16:24,709 --> 02:16:23,119
history they make a big deal of being a

3773
02:16:25,430 --> 02:16:24,719
christian nation actually they started

3774
02:16:28,550 --> 02:16:25,440
out as a

3775
02:16:31,669 --> 02:16:28,560
as an anti-christian nation

3776
02:16:32,520 --> 02:16:31,679
so you must love america

3777
02:16:39,509 --> 02:16:32,530
not with trump

3778
02:16:45,830 --> 02:16:43,110
i should explain sokol's motivation okay

3779
02:16:48,070 --> 02:16:45,840
so sokol is very left-wing very

3780
02:16:51,910 --> 02:16:48,080
concerned with social issues

3781
02:16:55,589 --> 02:16:51,920
and um he was worried that um

3782
02:16:56,950 --> 02:16:55,599
well like me he is also i'm also

3783
02:17:00,230 --> 02:16:56,960
quite concerned with a whole lot of

3784
02:17:03,270 --> 02:17:00,240
social issues and i worry about students

3785
02:17:06,629 --> 02:17:03,280
who who would become

3786
02:17:09,110 --> 02:17:06,639
you know um socially active in in a

3787
02:17:09,669 --> 02:17:09,120
efficient and productive way because

3788
02:17:11,429 --> 02:17:09,679
they're pro

3789
02:17:12,950 --> 02:17:11,439
science they're willing to you know get

3790
02:17:16,150 --> 02:17:12,960
the facts right

3791
02:17:18,870 --> 02:17:16,160
and do serious investigations into

3792
02:17:21,349 --> 02:17:18,880
the social situation and so on the

3793
02:17:25,349 --> 02:17:21,359
trouble with postmodernism it becomes

3794
02:17:29,349 --> 02:17:25,359
a bit lazy uh it's given to

3795
02:17:33,589 --> 02:17:29,359
sloganeering it's given to

3796
02:17:35,589 --> 02:17:33,599
analyses that um that

3797
02:17:37,669 --> 02:17:35,599
well i don't know they they see certain

3798
02:17:38,790 --> 02:17:37,679
things as as political that aren't

3799
02:17:42,070 --> 02:17:38,800
political

3800
02:17:45,030 --> 02:17:42,080
and and and often just pick up the wrong

3801
02:17:46,309 --> 02:17:45,040
end of the stick anyway sokol as you

3802
02:17:49,589 --> 02:17:46,319
already indicated

3803
02:17:51,349 --> 02:17:49,599
submitted this ridiculous paper and said

3804
02:17:54,870 --> 02:17:51,359
i'd like to publish this and it made

3805
02:17:58,230 --> 02:17:54,880
all kinds of claims um using

3806
02:18:00,549 --> 02:17:58,240
quasi technical jargon

3807
02:18:02,629 --> 02:18:00,559
and some of the things you would know so

3808
02:18:04,150 --> 02:18:02,639
he said mathematics supports a woman's

3809
02:18:07,110 --> 02:18:04,160
right to an abortion

3810
02:18:08,309 --> 02:18:07,120
it's in the form of the axiom of choice

3811
02:18:10,309 --> 02:18:08,319
do you know this

3812
02:18:12,150 --> 02:18:10,319
okay now you having a math background

3813
02:18:13,910 --> 02:18:12,160
you understand that the axiom of choice

3814
02:18:16,309 --> 02:18:13,920
has got nothing to do with

3815
02:18:17,429 --> 02:18:16,319
free will choice and whether you have an

3816
02:18:20,950 --> 02:18:17,439
abortion

3817
02:18:23,589 --> 02:18:20,960
um so it was full of jargon

3818
02:18:25,910 --> 02:18:23,599
just ridiculous jargon like this and the

3819
02:18:28,230 --> 02:18:25,920
and the editors published it

3820
02:18:29,589 --> 02:18:28,240
i've always had a bit of a guilty

3821
02:18:31,349 --> 02:18:29,599
conscience about it even though i

3822
02:18:33,750 --> 02:18:31,359
completely support sokol

3823
02:18:35,270 --> 02:18:33,760
and his motivation i was editing a

3824
02:18:37,349 --> 02:18:35,280
journal at the time

3825
02:18:38,389 --> 02:18:37,359
and when i saw the headline in the new

3826
02:18:40,950 --> 02:18:38,399
york times

3827
02:18:41,429 --> 02:18:40,960
it was on the front page and all i could

3828
02:18:55,910 --> 02:18:41,439
i

3829
02:18:58,230 --> 02:18:55,920
understand

3830
02:18:59,750 --> 02:18:58,240
the peer review process and why you

3831
02:19:02,230 --> 02:18:59,760
would ignore the

3832
02:19:03,030 --> 02:19:02,240
the process in certain cases and do

3833
02:19:05,429 --> 02:19:03,040
something else

3834
02:19:07,270 --> 02:19:05,439
and it's not intellectual corruption is

3835
02:19:09,669 --> 02:19:07,280
just something else that's going on

3836
02:19:10,629 --> 02:19:09,679
so if you've got a journal a physics

3837
02:19:14,230 --> 02:19:10,639
journal

3838
02:19:17,669 --> 02:19:14,240
it's a very well established discipline

3839
02:19:18,150 --> 02:19:17,679
with methodological guidelines that have

3840
02:19:20,150 --> 02:19:18,160
been

3841
02:19:22,309 --> 02:19:20,160
laid down they're reliable and if

3842
02:19:23,910 --> 02:19:22,319
somebody follows them they can be okay

3843
02:19:25,990 --> 02:19:23,920
if they violate them badly

3844
02:19:27,190 --> 02:19:26,000
you think look this is a piece of

3845
02:19:29,429 --> 02:19:27,200
garbage we're not going to take it

3846
02:19:33,349 --> 02:19:29,439
seriously but if you're starting a new

3847
02:19:35,270 --> 02:19:33,359
field like postmodern accounts

3848
02:19:37,270 --> 02:19:35,280
of post-modern accounts of science or

3849
02:19:39,190 --> 02:19:37,280
something like that you don't have a

3850
02:19:40,950 --> 02:19:39,200
long tradition that you can

3851
02:19:42,790 --> 02:19:40,960
point to and say this is this sort of

3852
02:19:44,469 --> 02:19:42,800
thing works that sort of thing does

3853
02:19:45,910 --> 02:19:44,479
you're you're you're you know you're in

3854
02:19:48,150 --> 02:19:45,920
virgin territory

3855
02:19:49,349 --> 02:19:48,160
and people who are doing that actually

3856
02:19:52,070 --> 02:19:49,359
need to be

3857
02:19:52,790 --> 02:19:52,080
you know encouraged and given courage to

3858
02:19:55,510 --> 02:19:52,800
explore

3859
02:19:57,110 --> 02:19:55,520
yeah and given a lot of free reign don't

3860
02:20:00,309 --> 02:19:57,120
come down on them too hard

3861
02:20:02,150 --> 02:20:00,319
for for you know um publishing

3862
02:20:03,510 --> 02:20:02,160
stuff that turns out to be crap now what

3863
02:20:06,389 --> 02:20:03,520
about the grievance study

3864
02:20:09,429 --> 02:20:06,399
affair well i'm i'm in favor of um

3865
02:20:11,349 --> 02:20:09,439
giving them a lot of free reign

3866
02:20:12,630 --> 02:20:11,359
by by grievance studies you mean things

3867
02:20:14,790 --> 02:20:12,640
like women's studies

3868
02:20:16,710 --> 02:20:14,800
black studies aboriginal studies and so

3869
02:20:18,870 --> 02:20:16,720
on no i think what's the reason folks

3870
02:20:20,710 --> 02:20:18,880
that came out yeah yeah i don't know i

3871
02:20:22,389 --> 02:20:20,720
don't know it well i read a very short

3872
02:20:23,990 --> 02:20:22,399
article on it

3873
02:20:25,590 --> 02:20:24,000
but i don't like the spirit behind

3874
02:20:27,349 --> 02:20:25,600
attacking them

3875
02:20:29,110 --> 02:20:27,359
i think they do need to be attacked

3876
02:20:31,910 --> 02:20:29,120
every now and then and

3877
02:20:32,870 --> 02:20:31,920
they certainly can't shouldn't just

3878
02:20:36,070 --> 02:20:32,880
think that they can

3879
02:20:37,030 --> 02:20:36,080
do any old crap at all but often they're

3880
02:20:39,990 --> 02:20:37,040
trying

3881
02:20:41,590 --> 02:20:40,000
to do stuff and they don't have set

3882
02:20:43,590 --> 02:20:41,600
guidelines to know

3883
02:20:45,110 --> 02:20:43,600
when when something is going to work

3884
02:20:45,830 --> 02:20:45,120
well and when something isn't going to

3885
02:20:48,550 --> 02:20:45,840
work well

3886
02:20:50,070 --> 02:20:48,560
they want to encourage a very generous

3887
02:20:52,150 --> 02:20:50,080
and broad

3888
02:20:53,590 --> 02:20:52,160
conversation about issues and i think

3889
02:20:55,910 --> 02:20:53,600
that's fair

3890
02:20:56,630 --> 02:20:55,920
and it's intellectually healthy and in

3891
02:20:59,110 --> 02:20:56,640
line with

3892
02:21:00,950 --> 02:20:59,120
academic freedom and in and and and it's

3893
02:21:02,950 --> 02:21:00,960
part and parcel with academic freedom

3894
02:21:04,230 --> 02:21:02,960
the only thing i have against

3895
02:21:06,070 --> 02:21:04,240
postmodernism

3896
02:21:07,429 --> 02:21:06,080
not not these other not these

3897
02:21:08,230 --> 02:21:07,439
disciplines like women's studies or

3898
02:21:09,590 --> 02:21:08,240
anything like that

3899
02:21:11,349 --> 02:21:09,600
i think it's terrific i think we should

3900
02:21:14,550 --> 02:21:11,359
have women's studies and so on

3901
02:21:15,429 --> 02:21:14,560
um but i am on the pro-science side of

3902
02:21:17,910 --> 02:21:15,439
the left

3903
02:21:19,590 --> 02:21:17,920
and that's because i think once you if

3904
02:21:22,469 --> 02:21:19,600
you're if you're a serious

3905
02:21:23,030 --> 02:21:22,479
post-modern who says oh truth truth

3906
02:21:25,830 --> 02:21:23,040
smooth

3907
02:21:26,389 --> 02:21:25,840
you know uh facts smacks you know

3908
02:21:28,790 --> 02:21:26,399
whatever

3909
02:21:29,990 --> 02:21:28,800
um you end up shooting yourself in the

3910
02:21:32,550 --> 02:21:30,000
foot

3911
02:21:33,429 --> 02:21:32,560
it's really really important to get

3912
02:21:36,150 --> 02:21:33,439
things like

3913
02:21:37,990 --> 02:21:36,160
global warming right in order to you

3914
02:21:41,910 --> 02:21:38,000
know to understand what's going on

3915
02:21:44,389 --> 02:21:41,920
and to and to tackle it um politically

3916
02:21:46,230 --> 02:21:44,399
to solve these problems i don't i don't

3917
02:21:49,270 --> 02:21:46,240
see that postmoderns have ever done

3918
02:21:51,990 --> 02:21:49,280
anything useful in combating

3919
02:21:53,750 --> 02:21:52,000
climate change the facts about racism

3920
02:21:54,710 --> 02:21:53,760
the facts about the climate the facts

3921
02:21:56,790 --> 02:21:54,720
about

3922
02:21:57,910 --> 02:21:56,800
the pharmaceutical industry those things

3923
02:22:04,469 --> 02:21:57,920
are really important

3924
02:22:08,710 --> 02:22:06,870
there might be some truth to this so i

3925
02:22:11,990 --> 02:22:08,720
usually back off

3926
02:22:12,550 --> 02:22:12,000
and say well you know some approximation

3927
02:22:15,750 --> 02:22:12,560
to

3928
02:22:18,870 --> 02:22:15,760
an egalitarian socialist world um

3929
02:22:20,870 --> 02:22:18,880
and maybe some people are five times as

3930
02:22:22,790 --> 02:22:20,880
well off as other people

3931
02:22:25,349 --> 02:22:22,800
but that would be such an incredible

3932
02:22:28,630 --> 02:22:25,359
improvement over the current situation

3933
02:22:30,550 --> 02:22:28,640
that i'd be i'd go happily to my grave

3934
02:22:33,429 --> 02:22:30,560
you know if the difference between the

3935
02:22:36,870 --> 02:22:33,439
poorest and the richest we're only

3936
02:22:38,790 --> 02:22:36,880
five-fold in wealth as you know it's

3937
02:22:41,670 --> 02:22:38,800
much much much much greater than that

3938
02:22:45,349 --> 02:22:41,680
now um i also think

3939
02:22:48,790 --> 02:22:45,359
uh what i care about most of all

3940
02:22:50,230 --> 02:22:48,800
um uh you see a lot of people care about

3941
02:22:51,750 --> 02:22:50,240
rights and they care about freedom and

3942
02:22:54,550 --> 02:22:51,760
freedom of speech and

3943
02:22:55,830 --> 02:22:54,560
and so on and i think those things are

3944
02:22:58,469 --> 02:22:55,840
important

3945
02:22:59,750 --> 02:22:58,479
but i think human well-being trumps

3946
02:23:02,070 --> 02:22:59,760
everything

3947
02:23:03,429 --> 02:23:02,080
if all humans are reasonably well-off

3948
02:23:05,830 --> 02:23:03,439
and they're happy

3949
02:23:07,110 --> 02:23:05,840
and content then that's the kind of

3950
02:23:09,830 --> 02:23:07,120
world i want

3951
02:23:11,190 --> 02:23:09,840
if they if we have to sacrifice some

3952
02:23:13,270 --> 02:23:11,200
rights

3953
02:23:14,870 --> 02:23:13,280
say you even limit freedom of speech to

3954
02:23:17,429 --> 02:23:14,880
some extent for that

3955
02:23:17,990 --> 02:23:17,439
i'd be willing to do that i think going

3956
02:23:19,830 --> 02:23:18,000
to the wall

3957
02:23:22,630 --> 02:23:19,840
for complete freedom of speech for

3958
02:23:26,389 --> 02:23:22,640
instance is a complete mistake

3959
02:23:28,070 --> 02:23:26,399
i like canada's laws uh we have a great

3960
02:23:30,550 --> 02:23:28,080
a great deal of freedom of speech here

3961
02:23:32,950 --> 02:23:30,560
but not complete so for instance

3962
02:23:33,990 --> 02:23:32,960
that we have hate laws i'm i'm in favor

3963
02:23:35,910 --> 02:23:34,000
of hate laws

3964
02:23:37,750 --> 02:23:35,920
now i have lots of philosophical

3965
02:23:38,150 --> 02:23:37,760
colleagues and american friends and so

3966
02:23:39,910 --> 02:23:38,160
on

3967
02:23:41,429 --> 02:23:39,920
who think the us is much better in this

3968
02:23:43,590 --> 02:23:41,439
regard there's just no

3969
02:23:45,349 --> 02:23:43,600
constraints on your speech i mean you

3970
02:23:47,349 --> 02:23:45,359
can't you can't libel someone

3971
02:23:49,510 --> 02:23:47,359
you can't incite violence yeah you can't

3972
02:23:51,510 --> 02:23:49,520
incite violence but but you can

3973
02:23:52,790 --> 02:23:51,520
you can deny the holocaust in the united

3974
02:23:55,110 --> 02:23:52,800
states

3975
02:23:56,950 --> 02:23:55,120
you could declare that muslims are a

3976
02:23:57,910 --> 02:23:56,960
treacherous group of people and they

3977
02:24:00,550 --> 02:23:57,920
ought to be

3978
02:24:02,070 --> 02:24:00,560
uh oppressed and so on uh you can't say

3979
02:24:03,750 --> 02:24:02,080
that in canada you could be

3980
02:24:05,110 --> 02:24:03,760
you know prosecuted under the law for

3981
02:24:08,389 --> 02:24:05,120
that i favor

3982
02:24:10,710 --> 02:24:08,399
those constraints on freedom of speech

3983
02:24:11,750 --> 02:24:10,720
and i would favor probably other

3984
02:24:13,750 --> 02:24:11,760
constraints too

3985
02:24:14,950 --> 02:24:13,760
on other kinds of things that we

3986
02:24:18,630 --> 02:24:14,960
consider free

3987
02:24:21,750 --> 02:24:18,640
for in exchange for an enormous

3988
02:24:25,110 --> 02:24:21,760
increase in human well-being that we're

3989
02:24:27,429 --> 02:24:25,120
happier healthier we have richer lives

3990
02:24:28,710 --> 02:24:27,439
people can intellectually develop and

3991
02:24:30,469 --> 02:24:28,720
physically develop

3992
02:24:32,870 --> 02:24:30,479
you know to the best of their abilities

3993
02:24:35,110 --> 02:24:32,880
that's the kind of world i want

3994
02:24:36,389 --> 02:24:35,120
that's a very much a left-wing view of

3995
02:24:40,230 --> 02:24:36,399
things

3996
02:24:42,550 --> 02:24:40,240
um i think that ought to be

3997
02:24:44,710 --> 02:24:42,560
you know as far as you go but it's going

3998
02:24:48,070 --> 02:24:44,720
a hell of a long way

3999
02:24:49,030 --> 02:24:48,080
um usually when the left is is uh

4000
02:24:51,670 --> 02:24:49,040
attacked for

4001
02:24:53,910 --> 02:24:51,680
going too far it's either they want they

4002
02:24:55,910 --> 02:24:53,920
want to use a great deal of force to

4003
02:24:57,110 --> 02:24:55,920
bring about egalitarianism that's one

4004
02:24:59,830 --> 02:24:57,120
way and the other way

4005
02:25:01,110 --> 02:24:59,840
is the political correctness they're

4006
02:25:03,349 --> 02:25:01,120
accused of excessive

4007
02:25:04,630 --> 02:25:03,359
political correctness i think that's

4008
02:25:06,630 --> 02:25:04,640
just

4009
02:25:08,309 --> 02:25:06,640
almost always that's a false charge

4010
02:25:10,469 --> 02:25:08,319
that's just a bogus charge

4011
02:25:11,670 --> 02:25:10,479
that's like donald trump you know

4012
02:25:14,950 --> 02:25:11,680
complaining that

4013
02:25:16,710 --> 02:25:14,960
millions of people uh are streaming

4014
02:25:19,190 --> 02:25:16,720
across the mexican border

4015
02:25:21,990 --> 02:25:19,200
murdering and raping it's just a lie

4016
02:25:25,670 --> 02:25:22,000
right it's just a grotesque lie

4017
02:25:27,270 --> 02:25:25,680
okay um there is something

4018
02:25:28,710 --> 02:25:27,280
we never actually talked about this but

4019
02:25:30,150 --> 02:25:28,720
i'm going to interject this

4020
02:25:32,389 --> 02:25:30,160
because this is an illusion back to what

4021
02:25:34,790 --> 02:25:32,399
we were talking about earlier

4022
02:25:37,030 --> 02:25:34,800
political correctness is not a threat to

4023
02:25:39,590 --> 02:25:37,040
the university

4024
02:25:40,630 --> 02:25:39,600
we're incredibly free to do whatever the

4025
02:25:43,910 --> 02:25:40,640
hell we want

4026
02:25:44,630 --> 02:25:43,920
nobody is being uh suppressed inside a

4027
02:25:46,710 --> 02:25:44,640
university

4028
02:25:49,030 --> 02:25:46,720
it's a remarkable universities are

4029
02:25:50,550 --> 02:25:49,040
remarkable institutions i think they're

4030
02:25:51,830 --> 02:25:50,560
wonderful institutions but what about

4031
02:25:53,750 --> 02:25:51,840
what happened with jordan peterson where

4032
02:25:56,309 --> 02:25:53,760
they didn't even want him to speak

4033
02:25:56,950 --> 02:25:56,319
and they shut they had a whole protest

4034
02:25:58,309 --> 02:25:56,960
against him

4035
02:26:00,550 --> 02:25:58,319
and they want to get him fired yeah

4036
02:26:03,510 --> 02:26:00,560
that's probably a bad idea

4037
02:26:04,630 --> 02:26:03,520
he should he should probably be allowed

4038
02:26:07,429 --> 02:26:04,640
to speak

4039
02:26:07,910 --> 02:26:07,439
um probably yeah i i will say probably

4040
02:26:10,870 --> 02:26:07,920
and

4041
02:26:12,550 --> 02:26:10,880
because i'm not absolutely definite um

4042
02:26:14,230 --> 02:26:12,560
very likely i think

4043
02:26:15,910 --> 02:26:14,240
but i'm i won't say that about

4044
02:26:19,030 --> 02:26:15,920
absolutely everybody

4045
02:26:21,190 --> 02:26:19,040
so for instance um uh let's take what's

4046
02:26:23,270 --> 02:26:21,200
his name spencer

4047
02:26:25,190 --> 02:26:23,280
richard smith richard spencer who's a

4048
02:26:28,469 --> 02:26:25,200
right who's a white nationalist

4049
02:26:32,150 --> 02:26:28,479
yes yeah see i have serious qualms about

4050
02:26:38,950 --> 02:26:35,270
um we

4051
02:26:40,550 --> 02:26:38,960
universities that is are in a kind of a

4052
02:26:43,429 --> 02:26:40,560
bind here

4053
02:26:45,270 --> 02:26:43,439
if we let if the universities let

4054
02:26:48,469 --> 02:26:45,280
richard spencer speak

4055
02:26:50,389 --> 02:26:48,479
he gets a kind of prestige and cachet

4056
02:26:51,990 --> 02:26:50,399
so you're worried about legitimizing

4057
02:26:53,670 --> 02:26:52,000
yeah a little bit he gets

4058
02:26:55,110 --> 02:26:53,680
just by allowing him to speak at a

4059
02:26:58,150 --> 02:26:55,120
university

4060
02:26:59,990 --> 02:26:58,160
um and then but if we turn him down then

4061
02:27:02,790 --> 02:27:00,000
we get branded as being

4062
02:27:04,070 --> 02:27:02,800
is censoring him political correctness

4063
02:27:08,309 --> 02:27:04,080
and so on

4064
02:27:12,469 --> 02:27:11,030
and often right wing right wingers know

4065
02:27:14,710 --> 02:27:12,479
we can't win

4066
02:27:16,070 --> 02:27:14,720
and often they don't even care whether

4067
02:27:18,950 --> 02:27:16,080
they're allowed to speak or not

4068
02:27:20,150 --> 02:27:18,960
because they know they're going to win

4069
02:27:22,790 --> 02:27:20,160
just by

4070
02:27:24,150 --> 02:27:22,800
either speaking or being turned down and

4071
02:27:25,349 --> 02:27:24,160
then they go to the press and say we're

4072
02:27:27,429 --> 02:27:25,359
being censored

4073
02:27:29,270 --> 02:27:27,439
and then they get you know they win some

4074
02:27:32,309 --> 02:27:29,280
notoriety for this

4075
02:27:35,190 --> 02:27:32,319
anyway i don't think that um

4076
02:27:37,429 --> 02:27:35,200
intellectual real intellectual life of

4077
02:27:39,910 --> 02:27:37,439
the university is in any way harmed by

4078
02:27:41,429 --> 02:27:39,920
so-called political correctness the real

4079
02:27:43,830 --> 02:27:41,439
dangers to universities

4080
02:27:46,070 --> 02:27:43,840
is completely tangential to this the

4081
02:27:47,270 --> 02:27:46,080
real dangers is the commercialization of

4082
02:27:49,590 --> 02:27:47,280
research

4083
02:27:51,830 --> 02:27:49,600
we haven't talked about that at all and

4084
02:27:54,710 --> 02:27:51,840
that's that's a that's a really big deal

4085
02:27:56,070 --> 02:27:54,720
and it's an incredibly deep subject then

4086
02:27:57,349 --> 02:27:56,080
you probably don't want to go into it

4087
02:27:58,150 --> 02:27:57,359
and you have a talk about that right

4088
02:28:00,469 --> 02:27:58,160
well you know i

4089
02:28:02,070 --> 02:28:00,479
i i used to do a lot of work i i haven't

4090
02:28:03,349 --> 02:28:02,080
done much recently but i used to do a

4091
02:28:05,750 --> 02:28:03,359
lot of work on this you have one that's

4092
02:28:07,110 --> 02:28:05,760
public that people can go to

4093
02:28:08,790 --> 02:28:07,120
that people can search on youtube yeah

4094
02:28:10,150 --> 02:28:08,800
yeah i can i can i don't

4095
02:28:11,510 --> 02:28:10,160
not off the top of my head but i can

4096
02:28:12,070 --> 02:28:11,520
find something and we'll put the links

4097
02:28:13,910 --> 02:28:12,080
in the description

4098
02:28:15,990 --> 02:28:13,920
i'll give you a link yeah but the

4099
02:28:17,270 --> 02:28:16,000
commercialization of research is having

4100
02:28:19,110 --> 02:28:17,280
a tremendous effect

4101
02:28:20,389 --> 02:28:19,120
uh pharmaceuticals i think are just

4102
02:28:23,030 --> 02:28:20,399
about the worst

4103
02:28:24,870 --> 02:28:23,040
yeah it skews research so health

4104
02:28:25,590 --> 02:28:24,880
problems are not tackled by the best

4105
02:28:32,790 --> 02:28:25,600
solution

4106
02:28:36,230 --> 02:28:32,800
but maybe diet exercise

4107
02:28:38,550 --> 02:28:36,240
for depression things like exercise

4108
02:28:41,030 --> 02:28:38,560
are at least as effective as the the

4109
02:28:43,349 --> 02:28:41,040
best um uh antidepressants

4110
02:28:45,110 --> 02:28:43,359
without science but you can't yeah but

4111
02:28:47,270 --> 02:28:45,120
you can't make um

4112
02:28:49,030 --> 02:28:47,280
you can't patent it and so it's having

4113
02:28:50,550 --> 02:28:49,040
an effect on what kind of research is

4114
02:28:53,030 --> 02:28:50,560
actually carried out

4115
02:28:53,990 --> 02:28:53,040
that is a real worry so if we're

4116
02:28:57,030 --> 02:28:54,000
interested in

4117
02:28:59,110 --> 02:28:57,040
the truth and not just the truth but

4118
02:29:00,790 --> 02:28:59,120
truths that are good for human beings

4119
02:29:01,429 --> 02:29:00,800
you know that improves the quality of

4120
02:29:04,230 --> 02:29:01,439
our lives

4121
02:29:05,349 --> 02:29:04,240
our health for instance then we have to

4122
02:29:07,349 --> 02:29:05,359
really really really

4123
02:29:08,469 --> 02:29:07,359
worry and get a grip it's just far too

4124
02:29:11,510 --> 02:29:08,479
much money

4125
02:29:13,429 --> 02:29:11,520
coming in from industry and um

4126
02:29:14,950 --> 02:29:13,439
they're they're in fact often they don't

4127
02:29:17,670 --> 02:29:14,960
give all that much money

4128
02:29:18,309 --> 02:29:17,680
but um they'll they top up like the

4129
02:29:22,230 --> 02:29:18,319
government

4130
02:29:24,550 --> 02:29:22,240
funding

4131
02:29:25,750 --> 02:29:24,560
and that's arm's length that there's the

4132
02:29:26,550 --> 02:29:25,760
government doesn't interfere with that

4133
02:29:28,150 --> 02:29:26,560
they just give

4134
02:29:30,070 --> 02:29:28,160
you know the national research council

4135
02:29:31,510 --> 02:29:30,080
money and then they distribute it in a

4136
02:29:34,309 --> 02:29:31,520
peer-reviewed way to

4137
02:29:35,510 --> 02:29:34,319
physics and chemistry and so on but uh

4138
02:29:37,990 --> 02:29:35,520
often um

4139
02:29:38,950 --> 02:29:38,000
individual researchers will go to will

4140
02:29:40,150 --> 02:29:38,960
will apply for money from a

4141
02:29:41,270 --> 02:29:40,160
pharmaceutical company so they're

4142
02:29:42,630 --> 02:29:41,280
getting a ton of money

4143
02:29:44,150 --> 02:29:42,640
from the government and the

4144
02:29:44,950 --> 02:29:44,160
pharmaceutical company will often give

4145
02:29:47,670 --> 02:29:44,960
them

4146
02:29:49,349 --> 02:29:47,680
significant top-ups and it'll change the

4147
02:29:52,389 --> 02:29:49,359
direction of the research

4148
02:29:54,389 --> 02:29:52,399
and that's having a very bad effect and

4149
02:29:58,550 --> 02:29:54,399
we're just getting crap

4150
02:30:00,870 --> 02:29:58,560
uh drugs often these days because of it

4151
02:30:02,630 --> 02:30:00,880
you're not a fan of the fda do you feel

4152
02:30:04,070 --> 02:30:02,640
like that the fda is not so bad the fda

4153
02:30:05,429 --> 02:30:04,080
doesn't have enough

4154
02:30:07,429 --> 02:30:05,439
i i remember hearing a talk that the

4155
02:30:09,510 --> 02:30:07,439
fda's restrictions are too much are too

4156
02:30:10,790 --> 02:30:09,520
restrictive because they're limiting the

4157
02:30:13,190 --> 02:30:10,800
amount of drugs that can come

4158
02:30:14,070 --> 02:30:13,200
into market oh no they're not

4159
02:30:16,550 --> 02:30:14,080
restrictive enough

4160
02:30:17,190 --> 02:30:16,560
in that sense um drug companies will

4161
02:30:20,389 --> 02:30:17,200
complain

4162
02:30:22,389 --> 02:30:20,399
that they're slow and restrictive

4163
02:30:24,070 --> 02:30:22,399
and so on no we need to we need to

4164
02:30:25,910 --> 02:30:24,080
change the fda rules

4165
02:30:27,429 --> 02:30:25,920
well the americans need to change them

4166
02:30:31,270 --> 02:30:27,439
uh right now

4167
02:30:33,510 --> 02:30:31,280
the they they are mandated to license

4168
02:30:34,870 --> 02:30:33,520
anything that goes through a clinical

4169
02:30:37,670 --> 02:30:34,880
trial

4170
02:30:39,670 --> 02:30:37,680
and is is considered effective when

4171
02:30:42,230 --> 02:30:39,680
compared with a placebo

4172
02:30:42,870 --> 02:30:42,240
that can be incredibly minuscule you

4173
02:30:44,950 --> 02:30:42,880
know

4174
02:30:45,990 --> 02:30:44,960
and and yet billions of dollars will be

4175
02:30:48,389 --> 02:30:46,000
spent on on

4176
02:30:49,349 --> 02:30:48,399
on these drugs and if this drug gets

4177
02:30:51,190 --> 02:30:49,359
patented

4178
02:30:52,550 --> 02:30:51,200
and there's only generics to compete

4179
02:30:54,150 --> 02:30:52,560
with it then

4180
02:30:55,750 --> 02:30:54,160
they'll pour a ton of money into

4181
02:30:57,910 --> 02:30:55,760
advertising

4182
02:30:59,670 --> 02:30:57,920
doctors will start prescribing this and

4183
02:31:02,309 --> 02:30:59,680
doctors can be

4184
02:31:03,750 --> 02:31:02,319
corrupted by their prescription habits

4185
02:31:07,830 --> 02:31:03,760
and get money from the

4186
02:31:09,830 --> 02:31:07,840
pharmaceuticals yeah

4187
02:31:11,270 --> 02:31:09,840
you know about the cheerleaders yeah

4188
02:31:14,309 --> 02:31:11,280
that's remarkable

4189
02:31:17,270 --> 02:31:14,319
um and uh and these

4190
02:31:18,469 --> 02:31:17,280
often uh the a very old generic drug is

4191
02:31:21,510 --> 02:31:18,479
much much better than

4192
02:31:22,230 --> 02:31:21,520
these new newer drugs uh fewer side

4193
02:31:25,349 --> 02:31:22,240
effects

4194
02:31:28,550 --> 02:31:25,359
better positive effect incredibly cheap

4195
02:31:30,630 --> 02:31:28,560
you know to to produce and so on uh it's

4196
02:31:32,309 --> 02:31:30,640
a it's really a tragedy

4197
02:31:33,990 --> 02:31:32,319
it's hard to know how to combat it i

4198
02:31:35,510 --> 02:31:34,000
think i i think i know how to combat it

4199
02:31:36,790 --> 02:31:35,520
in canada

4200
02:31:38,870 --> 02:31:36,800
hard to know how to combat it in the

4201
02:31:41,190 --> 02:31:38,880
united states because the united states

4202
02:31:43,190 --> 02:31:41,200
economy is so structured around

4203
02:31:45,750 --> 02:31:43,200
intellectual property rights

4204
02:31:48,070 --> 02:31:45,760
i've tried to figure out how much of

4205
02:31:50,230 --> 02:31:48,080
american exports to the world

4206
02:31:51,429 --> 02:31:50,240
is in the form of ip rights because

4207
02:31:52,469 --> 02:31:51,439
whenever you buy anything that's

4208
02:31:54,630 --> 02:31:52,479
american

4209
02:31:55,990 --> 02:31:54,640
i mean you buy a piece of plastic but

4210
02:31:59,190 --> 02:31:56,000
it's got but its value

4211
02:32:01,590 --> 02:31:59,200
is in the form of ip rights mostly and

4212
02:32:02,710 --> 02:32:01,600
um so what percentage of the economy is

4213
02:32:07,030 --> 02:32:02,720
actually

4214
02:32:08,790 --> 02:32:07,040
across the board on patents but on drugs

4215
02:32:11,349 --> 02:32:08,800
i think it's uh it's a terrible mistake

4216
02:32:14,389 --> 02:32:11,359
and we should eliminate patents on drugs

4217
02:32:18,230 --> 02:32:14,399
um one of the reasons is

4218
02:32:20,230 --> 02:32:18,240
unlike say my new iphone full of patents

4219
02:32:21,510 --> 02:32:20,240
yeah but i can tell whether the damn

4220
02:32:23,030 --> 02:32:21,520
thing works yeah

4221
02:32:24,790 --> 02:32:23,040
you know i just turn it on and it works

4222
02:32:27,990 --> 02:32:24,800
or it doesn't work but

4223
02:32:28,950 --> 02:32:28,000
in the case of almost every drug there's

4224
02:32:31,270 --> 02:32:28,960
no way for

4225
02:32:32,870 --> 02:32:31,280
an individual to determine whether he or

4226
02:32:34,870 --> 02:32:32,880
she is benefiting from this drug

4227
02:32:37,030 --> 02:32:34,880
all you can do is look at it in a very

4228
02:32:39,190 --> 02:32:37,040
statistical way and there's an incentive

4229
02:32:40,790 --> 02:32:39,200
to produce a drug that works as long as

4230
02:32:44,230 --> 02:32:40,800
you take it

4231
02:32:45,110 --> 02:32:44,240
true and that's not good uh oh i see

4232
02:32:48,630 --> 02:32:45,120
what you mean

4233
02:32:50,870 --> 02:32:48,640
yes um treating chronic diseases is

4234
02:32:52,070 --> 02:32:50,880
is much better than curing something

4235
02:32:53,990 --> 02:32:52,080
with a vaccine

4236
02:32:55,429 --> 02:32:54,000
for instance yeah yeah all kinds of

4237
02:32:58,790 --> 02:32:55,439
problems like this

4238
02:33:00,469 --> 02:32:58,800
um anyway commercialization that's

4239
02:33:01,990 --> 02:33:00,479
i think is the real threat to

4240
02:33:04,150 --> 02:33:02,000
intellectual life

4241
02:33:06,070 --> 02:33:04,160
um and not political correctness which

4242
02:33:16,070 --> 02:33:06,080
is really really small potatoes

4243
02:33:19,510 --> 02:33:18,469
you said that you had some trouble with

4244
02:33:22,309 --> 02:33:19,520
jordan peterson's

4245
02:33:23,670 --> 02:33:22,319
point of view of truth oh well watching

4246
02:33:26,389 --> 02:33:23,680
uh

4247
02:33:27,750 --> 02:33:26,399
watching a video that you directed me to

4248
02:33:30,790 --> 02:33:27,760
and i'm glad

4249
02:33:31,349 --> 02:33:30,800
this was a video a discussion between

4250
02:33:35,110 --> 02:33:31,359
him

4251
02:33:37,030 --> 02:33:35,120
and sam harris who you also don't

4252
02:33:38,469 --> 02:33:37,040
necessarily like uh i have special

4253
02:33:38,950 --> 02:33:38,479
problems with harris maybe to talk about

4254
02:33:42,230 --> 02:33:38,960
that

4255
02:33:44,469 --> 02:33:42,240
later yeah so this was uh

4256
02:33:45,349 --> 02:33:44,479
harris invited him on and harris seems

4257
02:33:46,950 --> 02:33:45,359
to be

4258
02:33:48,469 --> 02:33:46,960
one of these people who doesn't like

4259
02:33:50,070 --> 02:33:48,479
political correctness

4260
02:33:51,670 --> 02:33:50,080
and thought that jordan peterson might

4261
02:33:54,750 --> 02:33:51,680
be good

4262
02:33:56,710 --> 02:33:54,760
a nice ally perhaps because he too is

4263
02:34:00,389 --> 02:33:56,720
anti-political correctness

4264
02:34:03,270 --> 02:34:00,399
and so on but then they got bogged down

4265
02:34:04,469 --> 02:34:03,280
on this notion of truth and and as far

4266
02:34:07,349 --> 02:34:04,479
as i can tell

4267
02:34:08,790 --> 02:34:07,359
peterson is just wacko on the concept of

4268
02:34:12,230 --> 02:34:08,800
truth

4269
02:34:15,270 --> 02:34:12,240
um i should just explain

4270
02:34:16,710 --> 02:34:15,280
when people talk about truth they're not

4271
02:34:19,190 --> 02:34:16,720
talking about particular truths

4272
02:34:21,030 --> 02:34:19,200
like we can argue whether or not the the

4273
02:34:22,790 --> 02:34:21,040
neutrino has mass

4274
02:34:24,630 --> 02:34:22,800
okay we don't know what's true and we

4275
02:34:27,270 --> 02:34:24,640
don't know what's false and we can argue

4276
02:34:29,349 --> 02:34:27,280
about that and produce evidence

4277
02:34:31,110 --> 02:34:29,359
this is arguing about the very concept

4278
02:34:32,950 --> 02:34:31,120
of truth itself what does it mean for

4279
02:34:36,389 --> 02:34:32,960
something to be true

4280
02:34:39,590 --> 02:34:36,399
and a normal person normal philosophers

4281
02:34:41,590 --> 02:34:39,600
standard philosophers take us

4282
02:34:43,590 --> 02:34:41,600
more or less a common sense view about

4283
02:34:46,790 --> 02:34:43,600
truth so a sentence

4284
02:34:50,230 --> 02:34:46,800
a statement a belief

4285
02:34:51,990 --> 02:34:50,240
is true because it corresponds to the

4286
02:34:55,830 --> 02:34:52,000
way things are

4287
02:34:58,389 --> 02:34:55,840
so the sentence there is a

4288
02:34:59,190 --> 02:34:58,399
recording device on the table that's the

4289
02:35:02,550 --> 02:34:59,200
sentence

4290
02:35:05,590 --> 02:35:02,560
in fact

4291
02:35:07,990 --> 02:35:05,600
a table a recording device and one is

4292
02:35:09,750 --> 02:35:08,000
on top of the other it's a very simple

4293
02:35:12,389 --> 02:35:09,760
conception of truth

4294
02:35:14,389 --> 02:35:12,399
there are other conceptions some people

4295
02:35:17,270 --> 02:35:14,399
say no no

4296
02:35:18,550 --> 02:35:17,280
truth has got to be linked to evidence

4297
02:35:22,150 --> 02:35:18,560
so the sentence

4298
02:35:25,429 --> 02:35:22,160
there is a recording device on the table

4299
02:35:28,550 --> 02:35:25,439
is true if and only if there's

4300
02:35:31,110 --> 02:35:28,560
some method of gathering

4301
02:35:33,349 --> 02:35:31,120
evidence to establish that truth lacking

4302
02:35:35,830 --> 02:35:33,359
that evidence it's not true

4303
02:35:37,270 --> 02:35:35,840
if you're a realist about truth as i am

4304
02:35:39,750 --> 02:35:37,280
then

4305
02:35:41,670 --> 02:35:39,760
a sentence could be true even though the

4306
02:35:43,990 --> 02:35:41,680
evidence isn't there for it

4307
02:35:45,429 --> 02:35:44,000
you shouldn't believe it if you don't

4308
02:35:46,389 --> 02:35:45,439
have the evidence that's a different

4309
02:35:49,349 --> 02:35:46,399
matter

4310
02:35:50,870 --> 02:35:49,359
but truth and evidence are are things

4311
02:35:52,550 --> 02:35:50,880
that you can pry apart

4312
02:35:55,110 --> 02:35:52,560
so what is peterson's conception truth

4313
02:35:58,150 --> 02:35:55,120
as you understand it crazy idea

4314
02:35:59,990 --> 02:35:58,160
um that he calls darwinian

4315
02:36:01,590 --> 02:36:00,000
and so a sentence is true if it has

4316
02:36:04,790 --> 02:36:01,600
survival value

4317
02:36:09,270 --> 02:36:04,800
he's thinking of this as a very crude uh

4318
02:36:12,389 --> 02:36:09,280
thing um there is there are some

4319
02:36:12,630 --> 02:36:12,399
uh philosophical ideas about truth that

4320
02:36:15,510 --> 02:36:12,640
are

4321
02:36:17,110 --> 02:36:15,520
maybe a little close to that you know

4322
02:36:19,030 --> 02:36:17,120
that he might if he knew about them

4323
02:36:21,270 --> 02:36:19,040
he could say oh that's i sort of believe

4324
02:36:24,230 --> 02:36:21,280
that pragmatism

4325
02:36:24,870 --> 02:36:24,240
pragmatism often um identifies truth

4326
02:36:28,550 --> 02:36:24,880
with what

4327
02:36:31,030 --> 02:36:28,560
is workable detectable

4328
02:36:31,590 --> 02:36:31,040
serviceable to life serviceable to life

4329
02:36:34,870 --> 02:36:31,600
but it's

4330
02:36:38,230 --> 02:36:34,880
more much more sophisticated than mere

4331
02:36:40,790 --> 02:36:38,240
crude darwinian survival value um

4332
02:36:41,349 --> 02:36:40,800
but you can sort of see some kinship

4333
02:36:44,469 --> 02:36:41,359
between

4334
02:36:46,389 --> 02:36:44,479
peterson's view and

4335
02:36:48,230 --> 02:36:46,399
and pragmatism now the trouble with

4336
02:36:50,630 --> 02:36:48,240
peterson's crude view is

4337
02:36:52,630 --> 02:36:50,640
there's a ton of stuff we know that's

4338
02:36:54,710 --> 02:36:52,640
independent of survival value

4339
02:36:56,070 --> 02:36:54,720
in fact may even be true contrary to

4340
02:36:57,830 --> 02:36:56,080
survival value

4341
02:36:59,830 --> 02:36:57,840
so just think of all the things you know

4342
02:37:02,950 --> 02:36:59,840
about quantum field theory

4343
02:37:06,150 --> 02:37:02,960
that that wouldn't help you in this in

4344
02:37:08,790 --> 02:37:06,160
life's struggle at all you could

4345
02:37:09,590 --> 02:37:08,800
if you were in if you're in the jungle

4346
02:37:11,429 --> 02:37:09,600
trying to

4347
02:37:13,270 --> 02:37:11,439
you know uh like like our distant

4348
02:37:16,550 --> 02:37:13,280
ancestors you're not going to

4349
02:37:16,950 --> 02:37:16,560
survive thank thank goodness uh based on

4350
02:37:23,110 --> 02:37:16,960
your

4351
02:37:25,429 --> 02:37:23,120
you could make out a jordan type case

4352
02:37:28,630 --> 02:37:25,439
for a lot of crude simple beliefs

4353
02:37:29,590 --> 02:37:28,640
like um trust your color perception to

4354
02:37:32,230 --> 02:37:29,600
distinguish

4355
02:37:33,670 --> 02:37:32,240
edible things from non-edible things you

4356
02:37:38,309 --> 02:37:33,680
know that sort of level

4357
02:37:40,790 --> 02:37:38,319
that's fine but to be to to enter into

4358
02:37:42,309 --> 02:37:40,800
the realm of sophisticated science which

4359
02:37:45,030 --> 02:37:42,319
he certainly wants to

4360
02:37:46,630 --> 02:37:45,040
participate in he's got to have an awful

4361
02:37:48,630 --> 02:37:46,640
lot more

4362
02:37:50,870 --> 02:37:48,640
subtle and sophisticated view of what

4363
02:38:01,510 --> 02:37:50,880
he's doing than his simple darwinian